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He's a mathematician and a philosopher. Mathematics is a separate discipline to Science.
Since Creationists regard Engineers as 'sciebntists' and i regard archaologists amd historians as scientist, I'm not going to regard a Mathematician as something other than not having 'scientific' credentials. If he also does philosophy of science, he ought to understand science, at least broadly. But then as a philosopher, he ought to understand inflormal logical fallacies, but apparently, doesn't.
Theist/cult - think in action. "al right...good point, good point...ok explain this..." It is how religious apologetics works just like the UFO case does. It is how TruthTeller of the 'Unquestionable evidences' thread works. Science knocks down one proof of God, The believers rummage around for another 'atheist -stumper' that science can't answer.
Tzaph, it is irrelevant. 'Medicine' either works because it chemically affects the body or, by affecting the mind, that somehow enables the body to ameliorate symptoms. Either way, this is 'Facts', not preferences. It is about how it works, not miracles. it is about the working of nature, not 'Something more'. It is arguing that "Something More" (Aka 'God') proves it is a better hypothesis than what either medicines or mental stimuli are doing. Just because the way Placebo works is not explained or understood does not validate something more than the natural.
Unknowns and Unexplaineds do not a God make. They are merely Unknowns and Unexplaineds. Oh, I know how it works. They are gaps for the God that science does not need - so 'Something science can't explain' is need as a gap to pop God into. It's a Fallacy, Tzaph. It is illogical and doesn't wash. It only works if you assume a god on Faith a priori. It is why Theist apologetics can never be logical as they are based on an illogical premise - Godfaith.
yes. exactly.
it is a fact that something "irrational" can produce effective, positive, beneficial results.
it is a fact that something "not explained or understood" can still be used to produce tangible, practical, beneficial results.
no mention of God. no mention of miracles. no mention of the supernatural.
your words not mine. those are words that simply designate that the person using those words does not understand the process.
the point is that our beliefs, our perspective, our views can and do change the physical reality around us including our physiology, health, and well-being. It is a process that produces tangible, practical beneficial results. It is a resource that a person can choose to avail themselves of and use. or not.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 02-07-2020 at 10:21 AM..
Since Creationists regard Engineers as 'sciebntists' and i regard archaologists amd historians as scientist, I'm not going to regard a Mathematician as something other than not having 'scientific' credentials. If he also does philosophy of science, he ought to understand science, at least broadly. But then as a philosopher, he ought to understand inflormal logical fallacies, but apparently, doesn't.
Sure, and some creationists teach and study creation science. All it says is that we each find new meanings for words that in practice mean something else.
Pneuma. I heard John Lennox speak at a debate (posted by Julian) and he talks fallacy after fallacy. His argument from numerical complexity is fallacious, too. He is of course, just what you want to hear - a scientist dismissing the scientific debunks of Theism. But his arguments are all wrong.
Science does not disprove a god but it has debunked a lot of the apologetics. That has one a lot to 'kill' religion, if not Theism. The only thing theists can do is denial and posting videos like this in hopes that the faithful won't hear the debunks or want to hear them.
Well, here's a points so far. 'choose between science and religion'. I don't think that is the argument. Hawking have have thought so but it is more - science (as we know more) closes the gaps for God. There is less reason to suppose that a god exists.
Freud. If a a god doesn't exist, religion is a delusion. if it does, atheism is a delusion. Ok, but (aside all the canards that he heaps on atheism along the way) that sidelines the evidence that is making the god -claim more untenable.
Zeus vs. God. There is a small point that Creation created Zeus, but God created the creation. But that isn't the point. It is the 'santa' analogy, which Theists never understand. The greatness of the being isn't the issue- it is the evidence for it. And he refutes his own argument. As we know what does lightning, you don't need a god. Just as, for Hawking, knowledge (that Newton didn't have) now shows that creation doesn't need a god.
Fallacy after fallacy. Whether unwitting or deliberate, I don't know. But his arguments are fallacious, nevertheless. And i grow tired of him sitting and trotting out one fallacy after another.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 02-07-2020 at 09:29 AM..
What if a poster is simply ignored but never put on an ignore list? I would say that is a true exercise on ignore. Eating popcorn...
I have two ignore lists. The one that is part of the actual forum (which currently has 2 people on it), and the one that is on an index card next to the computer (which currently has 3 people on it). The latter I edit frequently, but it's more a reminder -- not a strict rule -- to try to avoid getting into things with those people because they're not worth wasting my time on.
yes. exactly.
it is a fact that something "irrational" can produce effective, positive, beneficial results.
it is a fact that something "not explained or understood" can still be used to produce tangible, practical, beneficial results.
no mention of God. no mention of miracles. no mention of the supernatural.
your words not mine. those are words that simply designate that the person using those words does not understand the process.
the point is that our beliefs, our perspective, our views can and do change the physical reality around us including our physiology, health, and well-being. It is a process that produces tangible, practical beneficial results. It is a resource that a person can choose to avail themselves of and use. or not.
No. It is the reality of how placebo works, that does the change. How it works is a fact. It is fact (or the science that explains facts for us, sooner or later) that counts not that the beliefs have any validity in themselves. Succinctly, that beliefs cause changes in our preferences do not validate the beliefs as facts.
We may use them, sure, but research into how and why they work is more valid than taking them as valid beliefs in themselves.
How so? Don’t you like free-will and being given the choice of where to spend your eternity?
You get to decide to go to hell, if that’s what you prefer.
What has any user here done to deserve eternal punishment? For simply not believing? Would a good person torture another for simply not believing a claim? Of course not, that would be immoral. So you are basically arguing your god is immoral, and that you worship this immoral monster.
Harry, you are also welcome to answer the simple question that was just put forth to Trans and to Marc, see posts #2010 and #2011
How is it simple? Do I have a car, yes or no? The answer is not half full, half empty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
those are your words, not mine
that is your view, not mine
those are your beliefs, not mine
you are putting words in other people's mouth (again)
You are misrepresenting again. And I am beginning to believe it is deliberate. How can I be putting words in your mouth when I asked you your opinion. That is what the curly things at the end of a sentence is, it means the sentence is a question.
So let me try again. Do you think the universe (or God) loves the millions of people who are starving to death? If you do, do you think that is a rational position to hold?
What has any user here done to deserve eternal punishment? For simply not believing? Would a good person torture another for simply not believing a claim? Of course not, that would be immoral. So you are basically arguing your god is immoral, and that you worship this immoral monster.
It’s not about just believing. Satan and demons believe that God is real. It’s about accepting or rejecting. Obviously you have chosen to reject. Don’t blame God. He’s given you the choice and will honour your free-will decision. Your fate is the one YOU have chosen.
So the universe loves you, but not the billions of people starving? Any you think that is rational?
The universe does not know me because it can not. The universe also does not care about me because it can not. To pretend I am a happy, successful business man because the universe has selected me as someone special is irrational.
And to get back on topic, think of all this suffering that exists. Is this more probable in a world with no god, or with a loving god? Because suffering in a small part of a large, old universe is what I would expect if there was no gods. These are not the traits of a universe created by an all powerful, loving god.
I think that one of our posters needs to get out more.
I have to admit that I was tuned into the magnitude of suffering in our world until I began to travel to Thailand and other parts of Southeast Asia...and even then, those countries are far from the worst in terms of suffering. It's quite affecting to see just how common diseases for which there are treatments and even cures are simply not available to the masses. It's not uncommon in Thailand to see people who have fingers, toes, ears, and noses that have fallen off from leprosy, or are otherwise permanently scarred and, therefore, shunned due to that disease, which in its early stages can be cured for a few dollars. It's quite affecting to see people scooting around one little wooden carts because their arms and/or legs don't work anymore, and there they are begging for enough coins to just not die from dehydration in the 100 degree heat. Its quite affecting to see the number of men (especially) who have lost limbs in industrial or farming accidents, and who have no resources to get an artificial limb or some other treatment. Its quite affecting to see AIDS cases walking and begging in the streets...gaunt shadows of what they once were or could have been. Its quite affecting seeing mothers with babies begging in the hot sun on a hundred degree day. Its quite affecting talking with a young Thai teacher talking about how he has been assigned by the national government to a militant Muslim village in the deep South and worried that his fate may be the same as some other teachers who were Buddhist placed in such villages...death. Its quite affecting to have a Thai Muslim in the deep South tell you the horror experienced by some militants who were herded into and then locked into tractor trailers in hundred plus degree heat, and when the trailers were opened they had all suffocated to death. It's quite affecting to talk with non-Malays in Malaysia who experience the same type of governmental and public abuse that African-Americans once suffered in our country. I could go on with many horror stories, stories which couldn't compare to what happens in parts of Africa. But despite the immense suffering in this world, one of our posters thinks we live in a loving universe. Bull toddy.
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"al right...good point, good point...ok explain this..." It is how religious apologetics works just like the UFO case does. It is how TruthTeller of the 'Unquestionable evidences' thread works. Science knocks down one proof of God, The believers rummage around for another 'atheist -stumper' that science can't answer. 
