Atheism As A REJECTION OF--Not Disbelief In--An Evil God (atheist, quote, pray)
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Two people, a Christian and an atheist pass a bum on the street with his hand out. He looks like he hasn't eaten in 2 weeks. The Christian says, "I don't have any cash. I only have a credit card. But tell you what I'll do--I'll PRAY for you." The atheist says, "Sorry, I don't have any cash." Which one helped the bum? Remember--the Christian said a prayer for the bum so the bum should be further ahead with the prayer, right?
But there's a Buddhist teaching where Ananda, Siddhartha's faithful servant from when he was a prince and later as one of his original "disciples", asks about choosing wholesome companions, and whether having noble friends and companions wasn’t half of the holy life. Buddha's reply was that, "Noble friends and companions are the whole of the holy life”.
I have long felt that we don't need to differentiate between relatives and non-relatives in this sense. Whether it is a father, or mother, or sister, or uncle, or any other relative, if they are not worthy of friendship, then they need to go their way and we should not let them drag us down.
There's a scene in "Guess Who's Coming To Dinner" that I think is very apt.
We have stuck around for a while, and the stats seem to indicate that you may as well pray to a milk jug, your cat or the sun; same results. And I repeat that Christians KNOW that prayer doesn't work any more than if there was no god at all, because any thread on Mark 11,24 will not get a claim that you WILL recieve whatever you ask in faith but a whole raft of excuses why you won't.
You people Know that it doesn't work. I have a stock answer to the 'What would convince you?' thing.
"I have a bottle of water on my desk. If you say that you will pray for it to turn into wine - and it does - I will convert to Christianity forthwith"
I have used that since my early days on Atheist Network and never have I had anything but silence or excuses.
Close but no. I don't think you have been reading Mink's comments carefully enough...
No matter what happens to the bum, it is as God intends. Good, bad or ugly, it's all good as long as you know how to interpret God's will.
I was otherwise going to suggest from a more practical standpoint that it's also a valid question that Mink asks, about whether anyone waits around long enough to find out. Wouldn't have anyone wait or hold their breath too long for that however. As no doubt any bum can tell you is usually the case...
No doubt the bum is wanting to know whether the prayers are sincere while waiting for other than just prayer or something tangible - real - to come of them.
Man has committed evil since day 1. Fully out of our free choice. If your measuring stick of a good God is to stop evil then we wouldn't have a human race. Or how would you feel if He stopped evil before you had a chance to be born? Then you might say God was evil because He never gave millions of unborn people the chance to experience eternal life. That's unfair.
OTOH, I don't think an evil God would do the following:
1. Give every human being a unique physical appearance, talents and personality. We are not products of a factory.
2. Give every human being a unique life path and journey.
3. Create the ability to sing and laugh
4. Give us taste buds to enjoy a wide variety of flavors and food.
5. Create sexual intimacy as the ultimate way for a couple to bond and be strong together.
6. Create a world of physical beauty and countless wonders.
7. Create a world where music exists.
8. And last but certainly not least, take a portion of His own being into a physical form experiencing all the human aches and pains and ultimately becoming of the most brutally physically tortured human beings ever to walk this earth.
Really?
Man has not committed evil since day one any more than a lion or zebra or ape has committed evil since day one...
If we want to play the what would God do game, however, I can easily imagine an evil God mixing all kinds of candy in with the poison. Those wonderful taste buds as part of the evil fun. Just saying, and even more to say how silly it really is to speculate about such things as if thinking one can make sense of it all with this sort of logic. Truly a kick to behold...
Two people, a Christian and an atheist pass a bum on the street with his hand out. He looks like he hasn't eaten in 2 weeks. The Christian says, "I don't have any cash. I only have a credit card. But tell you what I'll do--I'll PRAY for you." The atheist says, "Sorry, I don't have any cash." Which one helped the bum? Remember--the Christian said a prayer for the bum so the bum should be further ahead with the prayer, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mink57
Unless you stick around for a while, how would you know whether or not the bum received any help via the prayer?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mink57
O.k. You wrote:
I wrote:
First of all, with the general amount of detail you gave, it would be difficult to answer. There are too many variables involved.
But I'll tell ya...
Telling a bum that you don't have any cash but you 'only' have a credit card and not using that card to help him out, but that you'll pray for him, would be like a slap in the face to the bum. If you or anyone else is in that situation, it's best to simply say, "I'm sorry, but I don't have/don't carry cash". As for praying, don't tell him you'll pray for him; just do it.
Would the bum be "further ahead" with the prayer? It's possible. Perhaps in this case, it's not the amount of prayers that would 'stir' God, but WHO the prayer comes from.
Okay, I'll take a stab at it.
I didn't tell the bum "I only have a credit card," the Christian did. And the slap doesn't occur when the Christian doesn't help him out, the slap occurs when the Christian says, "I'll pray for you." I was in this exact same situation as a young Christian. I walked past a bum with his hand out and I said, thinking I was honoring Jesus or something, " Friend, Silver and gold have I none. I want to pray for you though." or something similar. The bum looked at me indignantly and said, "Stick your prayer up your a**!" I didn't say another word, I continued walking and looked back. He put up his dukes and started spoiling for a fight. That's a true story.
On another occasion many decades later while still a Christian I had a Subway in my hand to-go as I walked back to my house. A young panhandler asked me for money. I said, "Sorry I don't carry cash, only a credit card (I lied) but I have this Subway. If you're hungry you're welcome to it." He looked at the bag distastefully and asked, "What kind is it?" I suddenly realized I had a fussy bum on my hands. I figured this guy must have dined on Filet Mignon and Caviar in a previous life.
Far as the prayer goes a Christian should figure the bum is further ahead with the prayer. The Christian would be wrong. God doesn't answer prayer, remember? An atheist or deist would know that the bum isn't further ahead with either the Christian or the atheist. His predicament is exactly the same regardless. That's the best I can do without running my brain ragged trying to explain it further to you, Mink. Sorry.
I'm not sure if you're trying to be sweetly sarcastic Sam, but I'll answer your questions anyway.
Yes, the bum could pray to God. I don't know how many of my posts you've read, but there was a time when *I* was homeless myself. And yes, I prayed...and prayed... and prayed some more. Was I re-sheltered the first time I prayed? Hardly. I wasn't sleeping behind dumpsters, and I was far from 'starving'. But the break-through I was praying for didn't happen for 10 months. Once it did happen, it was absolutely perfect! It was MORE than what I prayed for!
Does God "change His mind"? Right now, I'm of the opinion of 'yes' and 'no'. While I believe that God has a 'plan' for each of us, I'm not so sure that His 'plan' is necessarily so set in stone.
Right. Let the games continue!
Does God change his mind? Best I can come to agreeing with you here (if we are going to speculate so) is that I too am not so sure. To say the least! Might as well ask me if I think my car is thinking about me when I get behind the wheel...
Very little actually gets debunked on here but it has been made clear what some believe, and that's about the extent of it.
So true, but there is also why people believe what they do in the case of those who at least bother to explain. Doesn't make a bit of difference to anyone, but there is the learning about what makes people tick and why. Something of interest to me anyway as well as a source of some frustration to witness, but as the world turns one might also say...
I didn't tell the bum "I only have a credit card," the Christian did. And the slap doesn't occur when the Christian doesn't help him out, the slap occurs when the Christian says, "I'll pray for you." I was in this exact same situation as a young Christian. I walked past a bum with his hand out and I said, thinking I was honoring Jesus or something, " Friend, Silver and gold have I none. I want to pray for you though." or something similar. The bum looked at me indignantly and said, "Stick your prayer up your a**!" I didn't say another word, I continued walking and looked back. He put up his dukes and started spoiling for a fight. That's a true story.
On another occasion many decades later while still a Christian I had a Subway in my hand to-go as I walked back to my house. A young panhandler asked me for money. I said, "Sorry I don't carry cash, only a credit card (I lied) but I have this Subway. If you're hungry you're welcome to it." He looked at the bag distastefully and asked, "What kind is it?" I suddenly realized I had a fussy bum on my hands. I figured this guy must have dined on Filet Mignon and Caviar in a previous life.
Far as the prayer goes a Christian should figure the bum is further ahead with the prayer. The Christian would be wrong. God doesn't answer prayer, remember? An atheist or deist would know that the bum isn't further ahead with either the Christian or the atheist. His predicament is exactly the same regardless. That's the best I can do without running my brain ragged trying to explain it further to you, Mink. Sorry.
This joke or joke of an analogy lost me with the credit card. I've only seen a few bums with credit card readers at the ready. Sheesh...
This forum really does kill me!
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let me try. 
but I'll answer your questions anyway.
