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I hate to interject but we don't really have definitive proof of precisely what happened before the Big Bang. There are some theories out there that say that two massive branes collided and the resultant energy expulsion is what created the universe as we know it.
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Branes? OMG if the universe started with two massive branes, then...the zombies can't be far behind! Everybody panic!
Ah Elizabeth, it's nice to have you here. Every now and then I encounter a feisty one and you are proving yourself to be one. What you are missing in facts and logic, you make up for in spunk.
I think we can look at the debate over the last few pages and see where I have made my points based on critical thinking and data, and where you have done the dog chases tail bit.
Don't go editing your posts now.
Hey John, I was here long before you, I just never showed up much!
Having duly gone back and looked over your posts I don't see anything earth shattering revealed. You have merely repeated the atheists take on this. Science.
You say I always fall back on 'God did it', well, I would, wouldn't I? Contrary to what you seem to think, I read a great many books on a variety of subjects. I am not a church goer. ( But may put that right) I have no clue as to how old the earth is and it makes no difference to me anyway. These things are not essential to faith and good standing with God. There are certain aspects in the bible that I am not comfortable with but it does not interfere in my faith in a creator.
But you have dodged my post. How do you explain the beginning of 'matter', from where came the spark of life, how has chaos, left unattended produced beauty and order. I put this very question to someone else on another forum. (He has had a social drink with one of Britain's arch atheists, Professor Richard Dawkins)....he never answered it.
Instead he blustered and said 'Elizabeth, is there nothing I can say that will convince you?' I replied that if he could answer those questions I might pause for thought...and if they ever find a fossilised giraffe with SHORT neck, I'm in.
But you have dodged my post. How do you explain the beginning of 'matter',
At this moment, we can't. Doesn't mean there is a God. That's like saying prior to the discovery of gravity there was no explanation for why things fell down. Just because we do not know something does not make a plausible argument for the existence of God. Science will not interject in that which it does not yet know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elizabeth7
from where came the spark of life, how has chaos, left unattended produced beauty and order.
Same response as above. Thus far, it's a scientific mystery although there have been interesting developments as well as setbacks in recent years. Again, science does not claim to know everything as you are trying to imply. It's not some sort of deity in which we say "Science did it." Science is merely an explanation for how things happened.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elizabeth7
Instead he blustered and said 'Elizabeth, is there nothing I can say that will convince you?' I replied that if he could answer those questions I might pause for thought...and if they ever find a fossilised giraffe with SHORT neck, I'm in.
I think your friends frustration is probably out of the fact that it seems like you don't understand the difference between science and faith. You know... Science seeks to explain the natural world. It doesn't seek to explain the supernatural world. If you believe that God created the natural world than fine. But, science would merely just be an explanation of the processes that he did so. It's not an antithesis to God. Merely understanding something about science does not negate your faith. AFter all, you probably believe that God exists somewhere outside the bounds of space and time - which would imply some sort of supernaturalism (if you know anything about physics).
My point is that you are sitting here sounding like you are refuting everything from evolution to the Big Bang theory because it appears like it's some sort of conflict with your faith. Yet, I think the bigger conflict, in my opinion, would be believing in a deceptive creator. A creator who just so happened to plant all of this evidence to make it look like evolution occurred and the Big Bang happened.
So, I think your friends frustration is not so much "Why can't I convince you to not believe in God" but rather "How can you be so decided against science when you obviously don't even understand it?"
Hey John, I was here long before you, I just never showed up much!
Having duly gone back and looked over your posts I don't see anything earth shattering revealed. You have merely repeated the atheists take on this. Science.
You say I always fall back on 'God did it', well, I would, wouldn't I? Contrary to what you seem to think, I read a great many books on a variety of subjects. I am not a church goer. ( But may put that right) I have no clue as to how old the earth is and it makes no difference to me anyway. These things are not essential to faith and good standing with God. There are certain aspects in the bible that I am not comfortable with but it does not interfere in my faith in a creator.
But you have dodged my post. How do you explain the beginning of 'matter', from where came the spark of life, how has chaos, left unattended produced beauty and order. I put this very question to someone else on another forum. (He has had a social drink with one of Britain's arch atheists, Professor Richard Dawkins)....he never answered it.
Instead he blustered and said 'Elizabeth, is there nothing I can say that will convince you?' I replied that if he could answer those questions I might pause for thought...and if they ever find a fossilised giraffe with SHORT neck, I'm in.
Elizabeth, I have posted on numerous occasions that science doesn't have an explanation for the ultimate origin yet. (Your beginning of matter, spark of life question.) I am not troubled by this because someday, we may have that answer scientifically. There are many steps in the road to take to discovery. We are much closer to the beginning of that journey than the end. At the same time, the lack of these answers at this time does not automatically validate Christianity and the bible as being correct. We know Creationism is incorrect, and we're working on the correct answers via science, however long it takes.
By the way, kudos to you for mentioning Richard Dawkins. You might want to catch some of his videos on youtube, or read his books. They may assist you in understanding the other side of the coin, and perhaps even enlighten you on some points.
Elizabeth, I have posted on numerous occasions that science doesn't have an explanation for the ultimate origin yet. (Your beginning of matter, spark of life question.) I am not troubled by this because someday, we may have that answer scientifically. There are many steps in the road to take to discovery. We are much closer to the beginning of that journey than the end. At the same time, the lack of these answers at this time does not automatically validate Christianity and the bible as being correct. We know Creationism is incorrect, and we're working on the correct answers via science, however long it takes.
By the way, kudos to you for mentioning Richard Dawkins. You might want to catch some of his videos on youtube, or read his books. They may assist you in understanding the other side of the coin, and perhaps even enlighten you on some points.
Yes, these questions (that I posed to you) go to the very heart of this debate. John, when you say 'we are working on the correct answers' etc.
Are you literally? Are you a biologist/scientist?
As for recommending Mr Dawkins.....I don't think so! His latest book The God Delusion has made him unpopular with even his own colleagues. One said that the book made him 'ashamed to be an athiest'. Such is Dawkins' loathing and contempt for people like me.
Here is an indiviual review of his book. I have only just read it tonight but I think you will find it most reasonable and thought-provoking. LRB · Terry Eagleton: Lunging, Flailing, Mispunching
Yes, these questions (that I posed to you) go to the very heart of this debate. John, when you say 'we are working on the correct answers' etc.
Are you literally? Are you a biologist/scientist?
As for recommending Mr Dawkins.....I don't think so! His latest book The God Delusion has made him unpopular with even his own colleagues. One said that the book made him 'ashamed to be an athiest'. Such is Dawkins' loathing and contempt for people like me.
Here is an indiviual review of his book. I have only just read it tonight but I think you will find it most reasonable and thought-provoking. LRB · Terry Eagleton: Lunging, Flailing, Mispunching
Sorry Elizabeth but a few reviews do not derail Dawkins' influence. He remains a champion to Atheists the world over. That's like me saying to you a few Christians dislike CS Lewis. Oh noez, that means CS Lewis has no more meaning for Christians if a few don't like him!
GCSTroop I have tried to reply with quote to you, but a message has come up on both occasions saying the 'message is too short'...I added a few well thought out words but it was still rejected.
I am not a scientist. Are you? That means we both read, absorb and understand the same evidence, but come to different conclusions.
That man did not answer my questions because he could not.
Sorry Elizabeth but a few reviews do not derail Dawkins' influence. He remains a champion to Atheists the world over. That's like me saying to you a few Christians dislike CS Lewis. Oh noez, that means CS Lewis has no more meaning for Christians if a few don't like him!
Did you even read it? All of it? Any reasonable person would conclude that your hero is a bigot. I knew that a long time ago
Did you even read it? All of it? Any reasonable person would conclude that your hero is a bigot. I knew that a long time ago
What make him a bigot? I don't quite understand, as I haven't read his book.
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