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As for recommending Mr Dawkins.....I don't think so! His latest book The God Delusion has made him unpopular with even his own colleagues. One said that the book made him 'ashamed to be an athiest'. Such is Dawkins' loathing and contempt for people like me.
Many may not like Dawkins' style (militant atheism) and some of his conclusions, but he is hardly unpopular. The God Delusion is one of the most popular books on atheism and one of the highest selling. I'm sure you can find some "haters" though.
Most atheist know more about god than christians do. Many christians even admit this.
So how many christians have stuided the history of their own bible? How many christians have studied the history of the christian church? How many christians have studied the religion(s) that preceded christianity? How many christians have studied the early church "philosophers"? Many christians can't even name one. How many christians have studied one of the religions of Greece/Rome, Egypt, Bablylonia, Summerian, Zorastrianism? Considering that many christians admit to having never read their entire bible, perhaps it could be their lack of knowledge of god that keeps them in "bondage".
According to Moderator cut: edit - calling out a moderator. the bible was re-written by King James 1st in order to facilitate his divorce from a troublesome Queen !!
I was compelled to try and disentangle history for him, pointing out that he was: a/ mixing James up with Henry the 8th, and b/ that King James did nothing more than commission the finest scholars of his day to produce a new translation of the original scriptures, and not to alter the text in any way.
So exasperation does creep in at such times, and this was not an isolated example of the sort of ignorance that comes from carelessness of the historical facts. As you say, techno, this comes as a bit of a shock if you have been used to debating on facts alone, because the cavalier way some posters happily distort a text, or even display a stunning ignorance of their own faith, really takes some getting used to.
It's dead easy for them to be selective in their quotes, and then not be able to back up their view with any detailed knowledge of the bible. Moderator cut: Take this up in a DM
I'm told that about 80% of Americans believe in God and the Devil, so I shouldn't be surprised at this bias, it's just that I'm not used to it, living in the UK, where religion is seen as a bit of an eccentricity these days.
Last edited by june 7th; 10-31-2008 at 08:42 PM..
Reason: Calling out a mod and/or being condescending isn't going to fly. Please read the Terms of Service that you agreed to.
You continually harp on the bible. If I had never read a bible in my life, my reasoning would tell me that there exists a Supreme Being. Every society on earth has always been conscious of something greater than themselves. Not backward people (there are not 'backward' societies) but the pyramid builders, the Aztecs, the Mayan ( brilliant mathematicians, all of them) and on and on. It is innate in the human psyche.
You are blinded by your bias for science. It is limited and always will be.
Why is SCIENCE such a dirty word for Christians - is it the only way they can handle the threat it poses for their tenuous beliefs?
An obvious question comes to mind, Elizabeth, and that is - WHICH WOULD BE THE GREATER LOSS TO THE WELFARE OF HUMANITY - SCIENCE OR RELIGION?
Refer us to ancient civilisations and their mythologies - it alters nothing. You and I are fortunate to live in an era when most of us live longer and healthier lives - thanks to Science, so please don't be so ready to dismiss all the good stuff that science has brought us, even if we don't build pyramids any more.
You idealise societies and civilisations who based their thinking on supposition and mystery as opposed to careful research and impartial investigation.(the bible is not too hot on mathematics either). But like me, I suspect, you wouldn't want to transport yourself 2-3000 years into the past, no matter how much you like to romanticise things. We would both miss the benefits of science too much...
I find the natural world as wonderful as you do, but unlike you, I am able to contemplate it for what it simply is, and and not as the brainchild of some tribal god who was worshipped in darker times, and whose relevance for the 21st century is highly questionable.
Thanks for the laugh. I find the story of the KJV amusing, and agree this is a very pro-christian site. Elizabeth's response is typical, but it's no excuse not to know the history, people, events of your own religion.
Speaking of the KJV, it wasn't too long ago (twenty years perhaps) that people swore by this version. My parents and grandparents will read no other version to this day. Ignoring the fact that it is by far the worst translation ever. All of this is irrelevant though, since they know god and find these things trivial. Although I'm not so sure god is happy how uneducated his people are on this topic.
I am not a scientist. Are you? That means we both read, absorb and understand the same evidence, but come to different conclusions.
I honestly think that you're failing to conceptualize exactly how science comes to determining its answers. To start with, no I am not a scientist, but even if I were I would more than likely only be a scientist of a certain study such as Biology, Physics, or Astronomy.
Yet, this doesn't mean that I am incapable of understanding the scientific method any more than it means you not being a theologian negates your understanding of God.
However, I think that what your failing to understand is how the scientific method works to come up with answers. Quite honestly, I'll be the first to admit that science has made mistakes. But, how do we know they were mistakes? Without a set of rigorous standards to apply to what we postulate and theorize, we could pretty much make any claim, call it "scientific", and disregard the need for any sort of contradictory claims.
Yet, if you really examine the scientific world and you really immerse yourself in it you will find it to be a world full of skepticism, bickering, and dispute. While this may sound a bit tawdry and rambunctious at first, it gives us insight into how things can go from disputable to agreeable.
Essentially, any claim within science must be backed up by evidence and that evidence should be submitted to the rest of the scientific community for skeptical argument and research - it's called empiricism. It's when all empirical methods have been exhausted that things are generally accepted as scientifically accurate - and yet, they are still liable to be disproven if better evidence comes along.
What I'm saying is that theories such as Evolution and the Big Bang Theory are perfectly capable of being overthrown by anyone willing to submit their ideas to rigorous scientific review and testing. You just can't say "I don't like it, therefore it's not real. I like this theory better" because it's not the truth. That's the importance of thinking scientifically. It's not about how much you know about science or whether you hold a credential of "PhD" behind your name. It's the thought process behind scientific skepticism that is important.
I'm widely open to any suggestion proving any scientific theory inaccurate or even incorrect. Yet, these claims must be made not just out of arrogance of wanting them to be different because they make us comfortable but also able to stand up to the rigorous standards of the scientific community. The reason I have a problem with theories like Intelligent Design is because they try to re-write what is empirically known and then based upon those "re-writes" they then lay their own groundwork. Well, I can do that with anything. I can change the Theory of Flight if I wanted to and say that the reason airplanes fly is not because of a ratio of thrust, lift, drag and gravity but because anti-gravity fairies spontaneously lift the airplane off the ground. I can make that claim, but I better be able to prove that fairies exist and that they are also interacting with the airplane. Otherwise, it's just mental masturbation used to support a fantasy land.
Did you even read it? All of it? Any reasonable person would conclude that your hero is a bigot. I knew that a long time ago
Say what? I loved the god delusion and I don't consider Dawkins to be a bigot at all. How sad and incredibly disappointing it is for me to see someone attack the writings of a person without actually reading them.
That is laughable. Explain to me why you believe him to be a bigot?
The Oxford English Dictionary has a bigot as 'Intolerant, hostile and opposed to any other view than his own'
We have Professor Dawkins for breakfast, dinner and supper in the UK.
He is forever given air-time to admonish and tell us what fools we are.
His arrogance and contempt is not confined to Christians. Muslims, Hindus and anyone else who has the temerity to disagree with his assertion that there is no God all come in for contempt and loathing. As I have stated, even some of his colleagues and friends (former, now) have disowned him after his God Delusion. He knows next to nothing of theology and has made a fool of himself.
You are welcome to your hero. He is going out of fashion here and, some disinterested persons say, a little mad.
The Oxford English Dictionary has a bigot as 'Intolerant, hostile and opposed to any other view than his own'
We have Professor Dawkins for breakfast, dinner and supper in the UK.
You are welcome to your hero. He is going out of fashion here and, some disinterested persons say, a little mad.
Sorry Elizabeth, but are you referring to god or to Dawkins in the bold part of your post (above)? I too, live in the UK. and I would say that 90% of us Brits think that this applies to god far more than it does to the engaging Prof. D.
You see, with our quirky sense of humour, we find Dawkins very entertaining, but god is just a colossal bore. No contest...
Sorry Elizabeth, but are you referring to god or to Dawkins in the bold part of your post (above)? I too, live in the UK. and I would say that 90% of us Brits think that this applies to god far more than it does to the engaging Prof. D.
You see, with our quirky sense of humour, we find Dawkins very entertaining, but god is just a colossal bore. No contest...
Sorry Brian, but you must be seeing something that I cannot! I haven't put anything in bold?!
You are on speaking terms with 90% of our population? I can understand you wishing to ignore the fact that some of Dawkins' colleagues have disowned him. It doesn't quite fit, does it? Someone (technobarbie, I think) said The God Delusion was a best seller. Well, Brian, you and I know the Sun newspaper is THE bestseller. So?
The Oxford English Dictionary has a bigot as 'Intolerant, hostile and opposed to any other view than his own'
We have Professor Dawkins for breakfast, dinner and supper in the UK.
He is forever given air-time to admonish and tell us what fools we are.
His arrogance and contempt is not confined to Christians. Muslims, Hindus and anyone else who has the temerity to disagree with his assertion that there is no God all come in for contempt and loathing. As I have stated, even some of his colleagues and friends (former, now) have disowned him after his God Delusion. He knows next to nothing of theology and has made a fool of himself.
You are welcome to your hero. He is going out of fashion here and, some disinterested persons say, a little mad.
Oh I see. So when you called him a bigot, you weren't trying to mislead us into thinking he was a racially prejudiced individual.
You were trying to say he was intolerant to certain things, such as religion.
Dawkins, like many other Atheists are intolerant to religions that don't play nicely with other people. This would include attempting to erect a pseudo-theocracy and forcing religious values on non-religious people, or visiting horrors such as Islamic or Old Testament atrocities on the rest of the world.
In that sense, we should all be "bigoted" towards those institutions.
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