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We don't "give up" ANYTHING for them. Rather, we help create a BETTER world for them.
The fatal flaw in your "argument" (hardly merits that term) is that it is NOT a zero-sum world.
We do that by creating MORE resources to make their life better, rather than giving up and trying to husband an ostensibly-fixed and dwindling resource base.
It's the difference between doers and watchers.
You might say, OMG there s only X amount of resource A available, we better ration it and do with less.
We say, OMG there is only X amount of resource A available. Make more.
Huh?
Argument?
What argument?
I just asked you a straightforward question.
Is that the best i have to offer?
I didn't realise this simple question represented some kind of scale of judgememt.
Truth is we are given to the earth by our parents.
I have to tell you, I am one of those people who won't even toss a gum wrapper on the ground. I live responsibly, but I am unwilling to give up ANYTHING for future, i.e. non-existent, generations, and I seriously doubt if you, where the rubber hits the road, would either.
Well, I stretch the truth a bit. A WOULD give up okra for any generation, past, present or future. Or, for that matter, imaginary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salty Water
People who aren't born, or at least conceived, yet, aren't people, and have no rights or legitimate expectations. The living, however, do.
I don't live my life for future, wholly-speculative, generations. Who does?
I am not saying crap on the earth, I am saying "future generations" won't be used as a lever to push me into a smaller, less-fulfilling life.
But there WILL be those inheriting what we leave. Their "rights & expectations" should be considered...if we care at all.
Since the environmental issues have come to light...I have modified my lifestyle. Is it "smaller & less fulfilling"? Yeah...it is in some ways...but it is fulfilling to know that I've quit being so selfish about how I indulged my wants & desires, that left a major carbon-footprint. Now, I "tread" much lighter.
And, of course, since becoming Pantheist, I have a reverence for things in a way I didn't previously.
Is that the best i have to offer?
I didn't realise this simple question represented some kind of scale of judgememt.
How about you stop over reacting?
You didn't answer the question btw.
I would think that you would have known that asking about children is one of the smarmiest debate tactics around, and is not even close to being worthy of a response.
I would think that you would have known that asking about children is one of the smarmiest debate tactics around, and is not even close to being worthy of a response.
Apparently, I was wrong.
You have no idea what you are getting into. Cruithne is as sharp and aware of what's really up as it gets. Always top contributions to the board. Educated me and gave me things to contemplate lots of times.
If you can't find your lunch...you'll know what happened to it. And Cruithne isn't even like that...it will just end up that way. I know.
I would think that you would have known that asking about children is one of the smarmiest debate tactics around, and is not even close to being worthy of a response.
Apparently, I was wrong.
Yeah you are wrong.
Gldn is correct. That's not my style.
Let's recap shall we?
You said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salty Water
Clever, to be sure, but not at all true.
Truth is we are given to the earth by our parents.
I have to tell you, I am one of those people who won't even toss a gum wrapper on the ground. I live responsibly, but I am unwilling to give up ANYTHING for future, i.e. non-existent, generations, and I seriously doubt if you, where the rubber hits the road, would either.
Well, I stretch the truth a bit. A WOULD give up okra for any generation, past, present or future. Or, for that matter, imaginary.
It seemed to me that you were saying, that you didn't have any future generations to give anything up for. I was simply asking you to clarify what you meant more specifically. You know, to understand your perspective more clearly?
If asking people if they have children is a well known smarny debate question, well I must have missed smarmy debate question day at internet etiquette debate school.
I have 3 children for what it's worth. Perhaps my perspective on life is different than yours? But we will never know now will we?
Of course you are under no obligation to tell me anything. That's completely your call of course.
Just know in future that not every question asked of you is a set up for a battle.
Sometimes, they're just questions.
But there WILL be those inheriting what we leave. Their "rights & expectations" should be considered...if we care at all.
Since the environmental issues have come to light...I have modified my lifestyle. Is it "smaller & less fulfilling"? Yeah...it is in some ways...but it is fulfilling to know that I've quit being so selfish about how I indulged my wants & desires, that left a major carbon-footprint. Now, I "tread" much lighter.
And, of course, since becoming Pantheist, I have a reverence for things in a way I didn't previously.
You never left, I am certain, a major carbon footprint in your life. Algore, for example, leaves a major footprint, maybe..
Carbon is the building block of life, and CO2 is the principle "food" plants consume to grow. If you are truly "green" you're all-in on CO2. For example indoor "growers" use hydroponics, warmth and CO2 to enhance yield.
My carbon output is limited only by my income. If I were wealthy, i'd give Algore a run for his money, and if wealthy enough, live on a mega yacht complete with helo-pad and helo. No guilt, no shame, no limits. I have but one life, so the sky's the limit.
You make think it is meritorious to live small, even church-mouse small, but it isn't. It is, however, misguided
Have you countered for the much larger population living during Mao etc., period of tyranny? Religion, well all but 1 of them no longer pose a life-and-limb threat to humanity, that is true, but what about the damage that holding back humanity's progress via religion's "neanderthal" mindset. Once the human mind is freed from dogma and its ill-effects, we will truly soar.
I will admit, however, that I might be wrong on this...maybe.....possibly..
That depends on which religion, but that is a separate topic. Some would also consider it bashing Christians because they do not like negative facts.
It seemed to me that you were saying, that you didn't have any future generations to give anything up for. I was simply asking you to clarify what you meant more specifically. You know, to understand your perspective more clearly?
If asking people if they have children is a well known smarny debate question, well I must have missed smarmy debate question day at internet etiquette debate school.
I have 3 children for what it's worth. Perhaps my perspective on life is different than yours? But we will never know now will we?
Of course you are under no obligation to tell me anything. That's completely your call of course.
Just know in future that not every question asked of you is a set up for a battle.
Sometimes, they're just questions.
Like I said, smarmy. I will give you that you may have not meant any smarm, but it is quite often used to dis-credit people who don't have children as if there is something wrong with them. Did I say smarmy? I should have said smarmy and disgusting, not to mention a cheap shot.
BTW, it is quite egotistical to think that you are helping the next generation, or any foreseeable generation, by personally giving up something or doing without. It is naught but ego stroking to think so
Also, I doubt that living small, or large or using or not using resources at a high or low level will have anything to do whatsoever for one's offspring.
If you really want to help your children, work hard, get all you can, using as much of the earth's resources to help you generate and accumulate wealth, and pass it on. Living small, doing without, never helped anyone, least of all your children who likely will live like peasants themselves.
Remember it is Aim HIGH, not Aim Low.
Last edited by Salty Water; 07-08-2021 at 12:01 AM..
The bottom line is that believing we are larger more complex system is a reliable belief. That's where we start in forming a belief.
I will take any evidence from the "lack belief"/"I don't have to say anything" side that demonstrates statement is not true. I expect crickets.
There are two ways to form and defend a belief. From bottom up and from top down. Bottom up seems to be the most reliable way to form and defend a belief. Again, I will take any evidence from "lack belief"/"I don't have to say anything" side showing that is unreliable.
"Top down" really only works with people that have the same agenda. Top down really self justifies the agenda. We really need to be very open and honest with ourselves with top down.
Starting at the word "god" or only fighting religions with a deity is a top down approach. Looking at top down doesn't really get us anywhere. As we see with "My god and the universe seem to be the same thing" beliefs; pantheism. People arguing with the base of "fight religion" (in things like HOA) are very limited in their scope and view. And thus, trying to argue that the traits of the universe as the base of a belief, pantheism-ish, from top down, ends nowhere. Things like a living system or universe (pantheism) just has to much commonsense associated with them to argue its dead wrong.
If, however, we start from bottom up. Meaning we layout the data and see what it means. Like, we are in a vastly larger more complex system, and work our way up, Living system and pantheism starts to have legs. Although I lack belief in pantheism at this time.
We can spot a top down thinkers when we see phrases like "Take it to anther forum", or "that's a strawman", or "I am not here talking about that". And obviously, people saying they are here to fight religion is something completely different. This is not the place, this place, represents itself as.
Last edited by Arach Angle; 07-08-2021 at 05:43 AM..
Like I said, smarmy. I will give you that you may have not meant any smarm, but it is quite often used to dis-credit people who don't have children as if there is something wrong with them. Did I say smarmy? I should have said smarmy and disgusting, not to mention a cheap shot.
BTW, it is quite egotistical to think that you are helping the next generation, or any foreseeable generation, by personally giving up something or doing without. It is naught but ego stroking to think so
Also, I doubt that living small, or large or using or not using resources at a high or low level will have anything to do whatsoever for one's offspring.
If you really want to help your children, work hard, get all you can, using as much of the earth's resources to help you generate and accumulate wealth, and pass it on. Living small, doing without, never helped anyone, least of all your children who likely will live like peasants themselves.
Remember it is Aim HIGH, not Aim Low.
Hang on a minute pal. Back up.
YOU offered up that you had no future generations to pass anything on to, not me. YOU said that.
All I asked for was clarification. That's it.
Apparently that's smarmy, disgusting and a cheap shot. I was only asking you to clarify what YOU already said.
I have offered NO VIEWS whatsover so far on the subject of how to live. NONE.
You know nothing about me.
I have obviously touched a nerve. I'm here for discussion, not insults.
So I will leave this discussion here without having made a single offering on the subject.
Meanwhile you can insult away and continue to make further projections about me without knowing anything about me, which in fact says an awful lot about you and how your mind works.
Enjoy.
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