Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Do you consume food? why?
All things we consume change us, some for the better some for the worse, but all that we consume does change us particularly medicines, in hopes that our being is improved some how.
This will be difficult for some to understand but if one is dormant spiritually and not feeding the spirit it remains dormant/dead.
Most feed the flesh selfish and lustful, and those that dabble in spiritism often do so in ignorance, not knowing the truth of what they are being told, or lead into.
Spirits work a con game with the sole idea of maintaining a distraction from actually seeking God, particularly Jesus Christ. They see Him as a threat, because He is to them. Some go to the extreme of selling their soul to the devil for fame and fortune, and no doubt they get it, but the cost eventually is greater than they expect.
God certainly is every where, of this there is no doubt.
Believing in God does Him no favors, there are many that believe in God but they do not yield to Him, rather they choose either to rebel outright or ignore Him altogether. It is rebellion one way or another. =Sin
I don't tell God what to do, I endeavor to cooperate with Him, seeing He has a better perspective of all things, and I have chosen Him the master of my life, though He does not pressure me into service.
When I cooperate, I am blessed and rewarded usually far beyond my expectations.
This is a relationship not a religion.
The foundation of this relationship Is Jesus Christ and all "He" taught and continues to teach via the Holy Spirit He alone can provide strictly on a personal level.
Jesus said," I am the way the truth and the life, no man can come to the Father but by Me."
then we know where you stand. the only "reality" that you recognize is the universe and that which conforms to science. well science as you interpret it. Because some very basic parts of science are left out like birth but no death, and being alive without ever dying. there is nothing (in your belief system) except the universe, and you have labelled the universe to be god.
The illusion that is our experience of "birth and death" does not apply to God. God's eternal life is the SOURCE of our perceived life and God does not die. That is what eternal life means!!! Our life transforms whatever energy we consume into the higher state of God's energy. Our developing Spirit in this illusion of physical life transforms our burgeoning Spirit to the same undying energy state (Spirit) of God (i.e. eternal life). There is no death.
Nothing is separate from anything else it is all myriad transformations within the "consciousness field" that is God's transcendent consciousness. The transformations are how God LIVES and there are no "deaths" just transformations. What we consider the universe and everything in it is our brain's interpretation of whatever is actually there which is God, NOT separate "things." We would be unable to function if we had to see what God's "consciousness field" actually IS which is why our brain is designed to interpret it as it does, much as a computer screen interprets the "electron field" within the computer to enable us to use it.
Quote:
i'm not trying to change your views, or argue that you should believe any differently than you do. i am just seeking to clarify some questions that were raised. and this recent series of posts has stated your views and beliefs nicely. thank you.
I realize that I am fighting thousands of years of conditioned learning about God but there is no such thing as the physical universe and everything in it. There is only God!! The universe and everything in it is an ARTIFACT of the "quantum Time" (God's Time) formation of the "instantaneous" awareness we use to perceive, measure, and experience it. Our measures and experience of time and space are "artifactual" (they don't exist) They are derived from the transformation in God's time that our awareness needs to enable us to measure and perceive anything.
The illusion that is our experience of "birth and death" does not apply to God. God's eternal life is the SOURCE of our perceived life and God does not die. That is what eternal life means!!! Our life transforms whatever energy we consume into the higher state of God's energy. Our developing Spirit in this illusion of physical life transforms our burgeoning Spirit to the same undying energy state (Spirit) of God (i.e. eternal life). There is no death.
Nothing is separate from anything else it is all myriad transformations within the "consciousness field" that is God's transcendent consciousness. The transformations are how God LIVES and there are no "deaths" just transformations. What we consider the universe and everything in it is our brain's interpretation of whatever is actually there which is God, NOT separate "things." We would be unable to function if we had to see what God's "consciousness field" actually IS which is why our brain is designed to interpret it as it does, much as a computer screen interprets the "electron field" within the computer to enable us to use it. I realize that I am fighting thousands of years of conditioned learning about God but there is no such thing as the physical universe and everything in it. There is only God!! The universe and everything in it is an ARTIFACT of the "quantum Time" (God's Time) formation of the "instantaneous" awareness we use to perceive, measure, and experience it. Our measures and experience of time and space are "artifactual" (they don't exist) They are derived from the transformation in God's time that our awareness needs to enable us to measure and perceive anything.
bold above, when you delineate these elements of your belief system "there is no such thing as the physical universe and everything in it there is only God" "illusion of physical life" "there is no death"; that is not "science based" or "science informed." show us any science book or science discipline which puts that forth.
it is however "pantheism" which states that the universe is God: "Pantheism is the philosophical religious belief that reality, the universe and the cosmos are identical to divinity and a supreme being or entity. The physical universe is thus understood as a deity still expanding and creating."
you have stated that in your belief system God grows because the universe expands, and God is the universe. And of courseyou seek to adhere to "conditioned learning about science." But nowhere in any inch of scientific findings is it documented that the universe is God.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 10-02-2023 at 07:40 AM..
The illusion that is our experience of "birth and death" does not apply to God. God's eternal life is the SOURCE of our perceived life and God does not die. That is what eternal life means!!! Our life transforms whatever energy we consume into the higher state of God's energy. Our developing Spirit in this illusion of physical life transforms our burgeoning Spirit to the same undying energy state (Spirit) of God (i.e. eternal life). There is no death.
Nothing is separate from anything else it is all myriad transformations within the "consciousness field" that is God's transcendent consciousness. The transformations are how God LIVES and there are no "deaths" just transformations. What we consider the universe and everything in it is our brain's interpretation of whatever is actually there which is God, NOT separate "things." We would be unable to function if we had to see what God's "consciousness field" actually IS which is why our brain is designed to interpret it as it does, much as a computer screen interprets the "electron field" within the computer to enable us to use it. I realize that I am fighting thousands of years of conditioned learning about God but there is no such thing as the physical universe and everything in it. There is only God!! The universe and everything in it is an ARTIFACT of the "quantum Time" (God's Time) formation of the "instantaneous" awareness we use to perceive, measure, and experience it. Our measures and experience of time and space are "artifactual" (they don't exist) They are derived from the transformation in God's time that our awareness needs to enable us to measure and perceive anything.
these elements of your belief system shown below absolutely DO align with what is presented by many paths of religion and spirituality. (I disagree that they "fight" teaching about divinity, i find instead that they conform to religious teaching about divinity)
"birth and death does not apply to God." (that's why divinity is described as unborn unformed uncreated; always was and always will be)
"physical life is an illusion" (straight out of theology; flies in the face of modern science however)
----------
incidentally since "birth and death do not apply to God" then it follows that "living" "being alive" also does not apply to God. Because "physical life is an illusion." So God is neither alive nor dead. And since "birth" does not apply to God neither does god "reproduce." Also since "physical life is an illusion" that is why time too is an illusion. because time is a function and byproduct of the physical.
and (not that it has any bearing on your own belief system) i absolutely agree.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 10-02-2023 at 08:34 AM..
bold above, when you delineate these elements of your belief system "there is no such thing as the physical universe and everything in it there is only God" "illusion of physical life" "there is no death"; that is not "science based" or "science informed." show us any science book or science discipline which puts that forth.
it is however "pantheism" which states that the universe is God: "Pantheism is the philosophical religious belief that reality, the universe and the cosmos are identical to divinity and a supreme being or entity. The physical universe is thus understood as a deity still expanding and creating."
you have stated that in your belief system God grows because the universe expands, and God is the universe. And of course seek to adhere to "conditioned learning about science." But nowhere in any inch of scientific findings is it documented that the universe is God.
You seem to suffer from the same definition issues that exist with the use of "theory" when referring to evolution. I fully admit that the consensus INTERPRETATIONS of the findings in science do not EVER mention God. That does not mean they are NOT findings ABOUT God. Scientific interpretations are based on a brute fact PREMISE, not any evidence, per se.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
these elements of your belief system shown below absolutely DO align with what is presented by many paths of religion and spirituality. (I disagree that they "fight" teaching about divinity, i find instead that they conform to religious teaching about divinity)
"birth and death does not apply to God." (that's why divinity is described as unborn unformed uncreated; always was and always will be)
"physical life is an illusion" (straight out of theology; flies in the face of modern science however)
----------
incidentally since "birth and death do not apply to God" then it follows that "living" "being alive" also does not apply to God. Because "physical life is an illusion." So God is neither alive nor dead. And since "birth" does not apply to God neither does god "reproduce." Also since "physical life is an illusion" that is why time too is an illusion. because time is a function and byproduct of the physical.
and (not that it has any bearing on your own belief system) I absolutely agree.
Birth and death AS WE PERCEIVE AND EXPERIENCE THEM do not exist as WE INTERPRET them, but of course, they DO occur. Our INTERPRETATION of them does not apply to God BECAUSE they derive FROM God's existence. They obviously DO EXIST as transformations (manifestations) in God's Eternal Life processes. The same is true of the universe and everything in it AS WE PERCEIVE AND EXPERIENCE THEM (as our measured time and space, et cetera). They too obviously DO EXIST as transformations (manifestations) of God's Eternal Life processes. That is what is meant by "God's ways are not OUR ways," but they ARE ways!
You seem to suffer from the same definition issues that exist with the use of "theory" when referring to evolution. I fully admit that the consensus INTERPRETATIONS of the findings in science do not EVER mention God. That does not mean they are NOT findings ABOUT God. Scientific interpretations are based on a brute fact PREMISE, not any evidence, per se.
regarding bold above:
if science does not mention God or address God, then it can't be said that your belief system about God is "grounded in science" and "science informed."
it IS however grounded in theology and found in paths of religion and spirituality. I agree that you are "ahead of the curve" with your beliefs, in that you have come to these beliefs which science does not yet recognize or confirm or validate. Theology however DOES recognize confirm and validate. It is an example where theology and paths of religion and spirituality recognize that which science has not yet recognized or "discovered" or validated. If science one day measures and recognizes this, it will be (another) case of theology and paths of religion and spirituality knowing something before science eventually caught up with it.
I don't know what "brute fact premise" means so I can't comment on that.
[will respond to the remainder of post #2435, in a separate post]
regarding bold above:
if science does not mention God or address God, then it can't be said that your belief system about God is "grounded in science" and "science-informed."
That is complete nonsense. Of course, it can be "grounded in science" and "science-informed." just interpreted differently. I use the SAME FACTS as they are discovered. I just extrapolate different hypotheses about what they support. It is those existing FACTS that make my hypotheses "grounded in science" and "science-informed."
Quote:
it IS however grounded in theology and found in paths of religion and spirituality. I agree that you are "ahead of the curve" with your beliefs, in that you have come to these beliefs which science does not yet recognize or confirm or validate. Theology however DOES recognize confirm and validate. It is an example where theology and paths of religion and spirituality recognize that which science has not yet recognized or "discovered" or validated. If science one day measures and recognizes this, it will be (another) case of theology and paths of religion and spirituality knowing something before science eventually caught up with it.
I agree.
Quote:
I don't know what "brute fact premise" means so I can't comment on that.
The brute fact premise is one that is just assumed to be true because it cannot be established otherwise. Theists use the brute fact premise that God exists. Scientists use the brute fact premise that God does not exist as it regards what they are investigating. That is what separates theology from science (unwarrantedly). The arrogant religious autocrats who ignorantly and self-righteously tried to control the early scientists are responsible for the schism, IMO.
That is complete nonsense. Of course, it can be "grounded in science" and "science-informed." just interpreted differently. I use the SAME FACTS as they are discovered. I just extrapolate different hypotheses about what they support. It is those existing FACTS that make my hypotheses "grounded in science" and "science-informed."
but your beliefs about god are not facts. they are beliefs.
science deals with the measurable, observable universe.
divinity is not measurable and observable. therefore divinity is not addressed by science
the "extrapolations" and "different hypotheses" which you "interpret differently" are the beliefs you hold. which are not part of science. the only facts are those from the measurable and observable universe. everything else is a belief, including that which you label extrapolations, different interpretations, and different hypotheses. If you feel better using those words because they give a veneer of academia to set you above the inferior masses, that does not change that they are still beliefs about god.
There are no facts about god.
if someone claims the universe is god, then they can claim there are facts. but those facts exist about the universe whether someone believes in god or not. claiming god is the universe is also not a fact. it is a belief. it is my own personal opinion (alluded to in the third bullet point see post #2424) that to claim god is the universe effectively nullifies god, because the universe exists whether someone believes in god or not.
Quote:
The brute fact premise is one that is just assumed to be true because it cannot be established otherwise. Theists use the brute fact premise that God exists. Scientists use the brute fact premise that God does not exist as it regards what they are investigating. That is what separates theology from science (unwarrantedly). The arrogant religious autocrats who ignorantly and self-righteously tried to control the early scientists are responsible for the schism, IMO.
neither of those examples are facts. they are beliefs. or assumptions. or premise. something that is believed to be true. That's what a belief is: something that is believed to be true = belief. I decline to discuss "brute facts" (whatever they are) because what is listed as examples are not facts. i also do NOT agree that "scientists have a premise that God does not exist." Science does not weigh in at all on the existence of God one way or the other. God makes no appearance in modern science at all. I agree that theists have the belief that divinity exists, because that is what a theist is: "believes in god." It can not be said that "science says God does not exist" because science does not say that.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 10-02-2023 at 09:25 PM..
but your beliefs about god are not facts. they are beliefs.
science deals with the measurable, observable universe.
divinity is not measurable and observable. therefore divinity is not addressed by science
the "extrapolations" and "different hypotheses" which you "interpret differently" are the beliefs you hold. which are not part of science. the only facts are those from the measurable and observable universe. everything else is a belief, including that which you label extrapolations, different interpretations, and different hypotheses. If you feel better using those words because they give the veneer of academia or set you above the inferior masses, that does not change that they are still beliefs about god.
There are no facts about god
if someone claims the universe is god, then they can claim there are facts. but those facts exist about the universe whether someone believes in god or not. claiming god is the universe is also not a fact. it is a belief. it is my own personal opinion (alluded to in bullet point #3) that to claim god is the universe effectively nullifies god, because the universe exists whether someone believes in god or not.
This is non sequitur. God exists whether someone believes in god or not. God cannot be nullified by what anyone believes or does not believe about God. Our beliefs about God have no empirical value. Existence is either God or it is not. What we believe about that has no bearing on its ontological truth.
Quote:
neither of those examples are facts. they are beliefs. or assumptions. or premise. something that is believed to be true. That's what a belief is: something that is believed to be true = belief. I decline to discuss "brute facts" (whatever they are) because what is listed as examples are not facts. i also do NOT agree that "scientists have a premise that God does not exist." Science does not weigh in at all on the existence of God one way or the other. God makes no appearance in modern science at all. I agree that theists have the belief that divinity exists, because that is what a theist is: "believes in god." It can not be said that "science says God does not exist" because science does not say that.
These are YOUR beliefs, Tzaph. Let's stop prancing around the semantic dance floor. At base, EVERYTHING we humans embrace cognitively is BELIEF, period! Stop pretending you are presenting some meaningful distinctions about FACTS and the "shades of grey" among the terms we use about them. Your point about beliefs being the opinions of those individuals who hold them is universally true. BUT the accuracy of those beliefs as descriptors of Reality is moot. You deliberately ignore the point that in my view PART of God (the immanent part) IS measurable and observable.
Face it, Tzaph. YOUR BELIEF does not define Divinity no matter how much you like the self-serving definitional platitudes of the sages.
This is non sequitur. God exists whether someone believes in god or not. God cannot be nullified by what anyone believes or does not believe about God. Our beliefs about God have no empirical value. Existence is either God or it is not. What we believe about that has no bearing on its ontological truth. These are YOUR beliefs, Tzaph. Let's stop prancing around the semantic dance floor. At base, EVERYTHING we humans embrace cognitively is BELIEF, period! Stop pretending you are presenting some meaningful distinctions about FACTS and the "shades of grey" among the terms we use about them. Your point about beliefs being the opinions of those individuals who hold them is universally true. BUT the accuracy of those beliefs as descriptors of Reality is moot. You deliberately ignore the point that in my view PART of God (the immanent part) IS measurable and observable.
Face it, Tzaph. YOUR BELIEF does not define Divinity no matter how much you like the self-serving definitional platitudes of the sages.
let's say a human being has a body (physical body) and a soul (non physical spark which is made of divinity)
the physical body of a human can be measured and observed.
the non-physical soul can NOT be measured and observed.
one way of differentiating between them is to describe them as made of "different stuff" they are not made of the same material and they do not have the same attributes. the physical body is born and grows and changes and reproduces and dies and decomposes. it lives for a very brief time and is finite. it has a beginning and it has an end. it only lives for a very short time. it is temporary. whereas the non-physical soul is made of divinity. it has no shape, form, gender size. it has no beginning no end always was and always will be. because it is a spark of divinity. it is eternal it is permanent. it existed before you physical body was born, and it continues to exist after the physical body is dead and gone.
when you say "part of God can be measured and observed" which part of God is that?
because you also say, "Our measures and experience of time and space don't exist."
when you say "There is no such thing as the physical universe and everything in it" and "illusion of physical life" and "there is no death" what does that mean?
just seeking to clarify. thank you.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 10-02-2023 at 10:33 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
