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That issue came to my mind as well. What about incest and early man? The first people, tribes. How they got around the problem of incest in the very early going when there were far fewer people generally speaking. Thought to look a little deeper into that issue as well. Also interesting. To me anyway...
"Prehistoric humans avoided inbreeding as they knew of its dangers at least 34,000 years ago, a study has found.
So, the commandment not to marry with non-Jews is somewhat puzzling given what we now know, but of course they didn't know better back then (or didn't care?).
Well, they either did know, or they didn't know any better? Which one is it?
As of the remark above.. I guess, it is valid for someone, who believes that humanity did originate from single source. And, literally, from incest.
Fortunately, I am not follower of that theory though, there was genetic bottleneck circa 70K years ago.
Btw, while we on it, Jews do go back to single "patriarch" per genetic research, but that terminates at around 4 000 years back.
Anyhow.
I follow different opinion and, it is strictly my opinion. Jews are very protective of maternal bloodline. Also, as I mentioned before, for Kohenim, there are particular genetic markers on Y chromosome, proving their belonging to highest priest cast.
That said, this leads to very particular attitude towards not diluting bloodline with non Jewish injections. What is in that blood/genetic material, that I do not know but, if you were not a Jew, if you were not born to 2nd generation Jew mother - well, that speaks for itself. Right, wrong - I am not to judge. But, it does set "us" vs "them". That it does.
I remembered something. As an anecdote. True Gypsy, Roma, are the same way. You are not allowed to marry out of the Gypsy bloodline.
Yet, they have interesting caveat to that. A non Gypsy man can "steal" a bride and, if for one year, they are not found and she is not returned back to family (he is killed, yep) - then it becomes kosher for them to marry. I, actually, met a guy who did this. Fortunately, then USSR was a BIG country and, though ALL Gypsy of it where searching for the couple (they had 6 Barons, that maintained entire USSR Gypsy population in alliance) - they managed to stay undercover. Then, it was all good. Bride was released from her "family", with according gifts of value, and she lived like a normal non Gypsy with him from that on. Mind you, she was not ostracized, simply her marriage was acknowledged as legit and there was no adverse repercussions to that. Sort of "courage accepted".
I couldn't think of the right word. Your's is perfect.
Anyway, the main reason is explained in Deut. 7:4.
God must be disappointed if the expectation was the Jewish people would obey this mitzvah given the % of interfaith marriages by non-orthodox Jews in the U.S..
Transparency is a good word. Something I like to promote generally speaking...
"Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, 4 because they will turn your sons away from following Me to serve other gods. Then the anger of the LORD will burn against you, and He will swiftly destroy you. 5 Instead, this is what you are to do to them: tear down their altars, smash their sacred pillars, cut down their Asherah poles, and burn their idols in the fire.…"
Thank you.
Who was it that didn't seem to think the wrath of God is often referenced going back through the ages to direct the actions of religious followers? So much for alternative religious tolerance it also seems...
58. To lend to an alien at interest (Deut. 23:21) According to tradition, this is mandatory (affirmative).
It is interesting to me that God should devote this kind of attention to the subject of lending and/or borrowing money. Curious to what extent this extends to other religions, I had a look, and no doubt this too was a widely addressed topic all over the world going back to our early beginnings.
"In many historical societies including ancient Christian, Jewish, and many modern Islamic societies, usury meant the charging of interest of any kind and was considered wrong, or was made illegal. During the Sutra period in India (7th to 2nd centuries BC) there were laws prohibiting the highest castes from practicing usury. Similar condemnations are found in religious texts from Buddhism, Judaism (ribbit in Hebrew), Christianity, and Islam (riba in Arabic). At times, many nations from ancient Greece to ancient Rome have outlawed loans with any interest. Though the Roman Empire eventually allowed loans with carefully restricted interest rates, the Catholic Church in medieval Europe, as well as the Reformed Churches, regarded the charging of interest at any rate as sinful (as well as charging a fee for the use of money, such as at a bureau de change). Religious prohibitions on usury are predicated upon the belief that charging interest on a loan is a sin."
Transparency is a good word. Something I like to promote generally speaking...
"Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, 4 because they will turn your sons away from following Me to serve other gods. Then the anger of the LORD will burn against you, and He will swiftly destroy you. 5 Instead, this is what you are to do to them: tear down their altars, smash their sacred pillars, cut down their Asherah poles, and burn their idols in the fire.…"
Thank you.
Who was it that didn't seem to think the wrath of God is often referenced going back through the ages to direct the actions of religious followers? So much for alternative religious tolerance it also seems...
What, likely, will be followed by very eloquent and tangled explanation that, all that was in some well forgotten times for some very very much so local specific reasons and is nothing but allegory and should not be taken literally, but metaphorically and, certainly, NOW it is all different and tolerant and what not....
Deuteronomy 13:16-10 specifically prescribes the method of execution to stoning: If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
What, likely, will be followed by very eloquent and tangled explanation that, all that was in some well forgotten times for some very very much so local specific reasons and is nothing but allegory and should not be taken literally, but metaphorically and, certainly, NOW it is all different and tolerant and what not....
Deuteronomy 13:16-10 specifically prescribes the method of execution to stoning: If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
And a transparent happy Sunday to you too, as I think it's time for me to sign off and get our Big Sunday breakfast underway now. Before anymore reading here gets me depressed...
58. To lend to an alien at interest (Deut. 23:21) According to tradition, this is mandatory (affirmative).
It is interesting to me that God should devote this kind of attention to the subject of lending and/or borrowing money. Curious to what extent this extends to other religions, I had a look, and no doubt this too was a widely addressed topic all over the world going back to our early beginnings.
"In many historical societies including ancient Christian, Jewish, and many modern Islamic societies, usury meant the charging of interest of any kind and was considered wrong, or was made illegal. During the Sutra period in India (7th to 2nd centuries BC) there were laws prohibiting the highest castes from practicing usury. Similar condemnations are found in religious texts from Buddhism, Judaism (ribbit in Hebrew), Christianity, and Islam (riba in Arabic). At times, many nations from ancient Greece to ancient Rome have outlawed loans with any interest. Though the Roman Empire eventually allowed loans with carefully restricted interest rates, the Catholic Church in medieval Europe, as well as the Reformed Churches, regarded the charging of interest at any rate as sinful (as well as charging a fee for the use of money, such as at a bureau de change). Religious prohibitions on usury are predicated upon the belief that charging interest on a loan is a sin."
2 notes. The first is that Maimonides and one other authority see this as mandatory. Most other authorities see it as permission, but not obligation.
Second, the way that this verse is understood is in the permission to PAY interest to a non-Jew, not collect it. As the Sforno writes,
Quote:
you are allowed to pay interest to the gentile (on your loan from him) and you must not betray his trust by citing the prohibition to charge or collect interest.
Of more interest to me to be honest, what is your perspective or understanding with respect to ukrkoz's comment #745?
I don't understand what he is talking about, so I have not developed a perspective on it.
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