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Oh ye of little, or dare I say, no faith. If you actually have an intellectual curiosity on the subject watch this video. The video was made by a man who has a Youtube channel named The Ten Minute Bible Hour. The linked video is titled 'How we know Jesus and the Early Church existed'. If you only care to watch from the point he cites the nine sources start at about the 8:00 minute mark. You're welcome:
Oh ye of too much faith and no powers to investigate claims.
Tacitus, no one mentions the passage for centuries (even though Christian who knew the works of Tacitus were looking for historical references), is probably a later Christian interpolation. Even if genuine, his source was probably his good friend Pliny the Younger, who asked the Christians what they believed. So not independent.
Lucian (Late 2nd Century AD) is recording Christian beliefs, so is not an independent reference to Jesus.
Seutonius does not mention Jesus, only some Jew in Rome called Chrestus. His followers may be the Chrestians Tacitus mentioned (the passage does not say Christians).
We do not know what Thallus wrote, only that he was talking about a SOLAR eclipse, so not about Jesus. We may even have a reference to him by Eusebius, where he paraphrases Phlegon (who was talking about a SOLAR eclipse in Turkey, in November, 29 AD). Which means Thallus was writing in the 2nd century AD, some time before 180 AD, and NOT in the 1st century AD. Your source was also not quoting Thallus, he was quoting Africanus (3rd century AD), who may have only thought Thallus was talking about the death of Jesus.
Pliny the Younger does not mention Jesus, only a Christ figure he heard about from Christians. And we do not know if these Christians were Jesus Christians or not, as the followers of Simon Magus were also called Christians. It also does not tell us if this Christ figure was historical, or a divine being as described in Paul and Hebrews.
The Talmud is late, says Jesus died decades before the gospels say he was born, it also says Jesus was arrested and held for 40 days, and that he was stoned to death in Pella (as were is 5 disciples) before his body was hung on a tree.
Mar Bar-Serapion does not mention Jesus, although he may have referred to him. We do not know when it was written or the source for it's information. If the source were the NT accounts, it is not independent.
Celsus, responding to Christian claims, some different to the gospel version.
Josephus, all the evidence is the TF is a later fiction (probably by 4th century AD Eusebius). The brother of Jesus reference is odd in it's grammar, so is probably a copyist error about a different James and Jesus.
Perhaps you should not accuse others of not having intellectual curiosity until you have investigated these claims yourself. Have you even read Tacitus, Seutonius or Josephus?
Last edited by Harry Diogenes; 03-30-2021 at 11:55 AM..
Reason: Wrong author
You're playing with semantics, Norman. Its written history, ignore it at your peril.
Or it is fiction, allegory, as Mark hints at in chapter 4.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioJB
Just know there are non-Christian sources that confirm Jesus and early Christianity. If you are an intellectually curious person who isn't afraid of hearing the truth and that it may change your misconceptions, please refer back to my post where I included a link to a video you definitely need to watch and listen to very, very carefully.
Yes...every time I see (for the jillionth time) those that celebrate & hope is a downturn of U.S. interest in the very title subject of the forum (strange they would do that)...I note that the main point (downturn/reduction in Religious adherence & practice) being made is being presented in a biased way by just noting a outlier Country...and, in fact, the world is becoming more Religious, not less.
I seek to provide more info & greater perspective to the base subject (people rejecting Religion) of the thread.
Religion, in all its forms and manifestations, is the biggest lie, by far, ever perpetrated against humanity. It is nothing but lies intended to placate but not educate.
I predict that when mankind goes extinct, it will be at the hands of the religious for religious reasons.
Religion is the biggest mind-shackle ever.
One more thing, that eternal life after death isn't going to happen - EVER. It is the biggest lie of all.
I was just reading an article the other day on how White evangelical Churches are losing people, left and right to QAnon Conspiracies groups. I would say there is only one person to blame for this, but sadly the Blame should be spread around evenly. https://www.latimes.com/world-nation...iracy-theories
Oh, how enlightened. On your deathbed you'll surely be one of those praying to God for forgiveness for your arrogant and smug denial of his existence.
Plenty of churches where I live and the parking lots were always packed to the gills when they had Saturday or Sunday service before the state of Ohio shutdown. Things are slowly getting back to normal as more and more people get vaccinated, and churches will be full once again.
It would amuse me that those who believe they are the educated, enlightened ones who no longer believe in God, if it weren't for the fact that their future entry into Heaven could be affected. That's as serious as it gets and its no laughing matter.
For those who don't believe in God but instead believe in evolution, how do you explain the human mind? Do you really believe a bunch of space rocks collided and eventually man and woman were created somehow? Its ridiculous.
And if evolution changed fish to lizards, etc., how come man hasn't grown wings so he fly? When you consider the distance people travel just to get to work you'd think they'd need to adapt so they wouldn't need to use a car everywhere they went. Let me guess, you're going to answer that it'll take us millions of years to develop wings? Well, I don't believe the nonsense.
I can see why people who are willing to look at whether God exists from a 'show me the evidence' perspective when they haven't done proper research question his existence. However, when you have at least nine different sources who were no fans of Jesus acknowledging his existence and that he created miracles/wonders, you really should reconsider doubting whether he's the son of God or not, which of course would mean God himself must exist.
I recently got a cancer diagnosis. I haven't started doing any praying.
Actual numbers outweigh your prejudiced observations. But to put it in perspective, in my home town in western New York State, the Methodist church -- once a busy, busy church -- recently went out of business and was sold, following one of the other mainstream churches in the town. The Catholic Church, which used to host 16 masses a week, now offers 1. The Methodist Church which is occasionally would attend in Colorado Springs never had a full parking lot and half the seats were empty all the time.
How do we explain the human mind. Well, if it's your mind...admittedly that can't be explained. But there doesn't have to be a christian god to have a human mind.
Oh ye of little, or dare I say, no faith. If you actually have an intellectual curiosity on the subject watch this video. The video was made by a man who has a Youtube channel named The Ten Minute Bible Hour. The linked video is titled 'How we know Jesus and the Early Church existed'. If you only care to watch from the point he cites the nine sources start at about the 8:00 minute mark. You're welcome:
I really want to listen to a man who describes his own YouTube channel as follows: "Videos about the Bible featuring sanity and depth. And also fart jokes."
You realize you and other non-believers are posting in the Religion and Spirituality forum, don't you? You're another one that needs to watch the video in my last post. What would you have me do, ignore those who make hateful comments about Christians? I'm sure you'd love that so you can TRY to run roughshod over people who believe. Not on my watch MightyQueen of foolishness.
I should certainly hope that I know I'm posting in the Religion and Spirituality forum, since I'm a moderator on this forum. You don't look really smart calling the mod names, but I've been called worse. It comes with the territory. I hope that satisfied some need in you to display a small meanness.
God knows I'm a Christian so your labeling me a nonbeliever has no value, unless you can show me where you get your authority to lay such a label on another in the absence of evidence. Or a label on yourself in the absence of evidence, for that matter.
And yes, I do think you should ignore those who make hateful comments about Christians and instead look inward to see if perhaps they were evoked by your behavior and your unkind and condescending words to a number of other persons.
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