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And therefore you can probably see why us atheists will forever be atheists.
It doesn't make the slightest sense to me why god would be so coy and shy, only revealing himself after decades of meditation on your part. While others claim they were just sitting about one day and god just appeared with no effort on their part. There's no consistency.
I think maybe there's this idea that atheists are dead set in their minds that god doesn't exist. In reality there are times when I have wished god existed. You know my story. I nursed a child through three and a half years of leukemia. I wished god existed in those days. I really did. But if god didn't reveal himself then he never will.
Yeah I know, then people tell me god works in mysterious ways and that you should never ask for anything. Whats the point in praying then?
It's all and forever will be, a mystery to me.
I agree, Cruithne. It is a mystery. I am convinced the expectation of physical intervention is the stumbling block. Obviously, I had no expectations about God whatsoever until my encounter which also meant that my quest to explain it all to my intellect included no expectations. That pretty much eliminated the Omnis', except for Omnipresence and what I experienced about God's character. Of course, the "red in tooth and claw" aspect and the widespread suffering, etc. (theodicy) of our Reality was a major thorn in my side intellectually throughout my quest. Only recently have insights from the Kabbalah assuaged that particular stumbling block.
My encounter provided the assurance that none of the issues presented by theodicy are a result of God's will, but that left the intervention as a stumbling block. Why doesn't God do something about it? I ultimately concluded that we are spirit beings so any interventions by God would be with our Spirit (consciousness), NOT the physical world, IMO. That is, in fact, the connotation of the Comforter (Holy Spirit). That makes sense IF the idea is to overcome and endure whatever comes our way by way of growing and developing our spiritual character.
Since I realize that this physical life is merely the temporary precursor to our real life, how soon we leave this physical manifestation is less problematic. Early departures might very well mean we have sufficiently developed. (It also makes my longevity a little troubling.) In any case, the idea that death is not the end, but the beginning of our next life makes accepting the passing of loved ones easier for me. I imagine them cheering us on in our endurance race as they come to realize what the actual deal is.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 06-22-2021 at 12:18 PM..
I'll just go on record that I have had evidence, countless times, over about four decades. Proving that to others is impossible. You'd have to be me, with my experiences at the same time. Does that present a problem or lessen anything in any way? No. Do I care if anyone else believes me? No. It doesn't change squat. It's a personal matter, and isn't up for sharing directly, any more than sharing DNA or sharing brainwaves would be possible.
Last edited by Thoreau424; 06-22-2021 at 12:29 PM..
If that is the case, shut down the forum, for as I see it, there isn't really anything to talk about.
As far as asking if "you really exist....", do you really think i haven't already done that. You know what the answer was? Same as here, CRICKETS!
HELLLOOOO. Of course. I wrote an entire post on the subject in A&A not long ago and another one elsewhere on this forum in response to those who said "just call on God/Jesus and he will answer you" to reiterate that so many have done just that with no results.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salty Water
Everyone here, with maybe an exception, is a one-trick pony so to speak, more or less.
But as you insist in a sort of round-a-bout manner, I'll desist and you all can go back to sleep.
Oh stop. You are wrong. Sometimes we do break out in a good discussion now and again, but it's NOT going to happen when on every thread somebody feels the need to say PROVE GOD EXISTS!!!! any more than it's going to happen when someone says "JUST BELIEVE!!" every chance they get.
A good example is the recent thread started asking if hierarchy harms religion. Was there really a need for someone to jump into a discussion about a specific aspect of religion such as that just to wave their arms and shout "first you have to prove God exists"? No. We know that RELIGION exists and that many religions have complicated hierarchies, and so asking if God exists in that context is off-topic.
You are one of the one-trick ponies if you yourself are going to use the same old trick. Come up with a new topic, and maybe people will wake up and respond.
By the way, I don't see where there was anything "round-about" in what I said. It was pretty straightforward.
I'll just go on record that I have had evidence, countless times, over about four decades. Proving that to others is impossible. You'd have to be me, with my experiences at the same time. Does that present a problem or lessen anything in any way? No. Do I care if anyone else believes me? No. It doesn't change squat. It's a personal matter, and isn't up for sharing directly, any more than sharing DNA or sharing brainwaves would be possible.
Thank you. This would be similar to my answer, and as a matter of fact, it's been said before. For many of us, our perceptions and practices of spirituality are personal, and we're not trying to foist them on anyone else. It seems odd that it has to be said so frequently, but I guess we are drowned out by those who insist on trying to get others to see things their way.
Here is the point, YOU don't expect any evidence. Have you closely read writers that show what they believe is enough to believe there is a designer. Or are you simply repeating what others say, or trying to control people to express what they see enough evidence for them to conclude that there is a deity?
So you don't expect to see any. Well, sit down with an open mind and maybe someone comes up with some interesting information. Not expecting any is an indicator or a close mind.
My suggestion? Leave your expectations and let people discuss their point without commenting presuppositions, regardless of how "evident" things are to you. That is what I called allowing people to express their views, however irrational they may seem. Argumentation is to share views and ideas.
You have a great day.
elamigo
I think what you don't see is that most of us have been on the merry go round many times, and that many of us (don't know about Mensa) were believers at one time.
Sadly, I think that personal encounter is what it does take. That has to be what called by the Father is all about. What bothers me is why it seems so random and isn't more widespread. I had ZERO interest in making any such connection with a God, but I diligently and rigorously sought the peace of Nirvana in meditation. Who knew that was God!
I don't think so mystic.
I think focusing on mechanism, repeatable prediction, and how consistent a belief is with observations could sure up beliefs. It can bridge the gap between rational; people.
The fundy think types fighting religion and wanting there own religion running the show will never agree. So long as we have forked tonged, well, dressed, soft spoken, broken brained people basing their whole agenda on preying on the weak, recovering, scarred, and "OK, but don't slow us down., we have the same goals and are fighting for you too." leading the way.
look at salty as an example. He couldn't care less about what is actually being claimed. If he gets in his head "Its religious looking" ... he is triggered. And both sides are using that type of person as weapon. Seeking them actually.
If our position did not have evidence ... we could roam as free as deity believers. we can't. and atheist that bought into that are as responsible for hindering growth as theist's that get out of the way of their fundi theists.
Its good people are leaving churches ... and forming their own.
I remember talking to a gay person back in the 80's. They were trigger at anti-god because churches were saying he was evil.
I asked him ... why don't you start your own gay Christian church? just because they have god wrong doesn;t mean you do. He gave me the most befuddled look and say "We can think that?" I almost said "No, you will never think, thats the problem." but I said yews anyway.
For my first 50 years, I too questioned and doubted.
Yet with my career IN the sciences - deep science has never been able to prove that God doesn't exist.
Still not enough for me, I finally found a 'Gotcha' verse in the NT of the bible:
Jesus stated the He and the Father would 'make their dwelling with those who love Him and obey His commands".
Searching for 'someone' who had accomplished that, I found them, and found HIM!
Here is the point, YOU don't expect any evidence. Have you closely read writers that show what they believe is enough to believe there is a designer. Or are you simply repeating what others say, or trying to control people to express what they see enough evidence for them to conclude that there is a deity?
So you don't expect to see any. Well, sit down with an open mind and maybe someone comes up with some interesting information. Not expecting any is an indicator or a close mind.
My suggestion? Leave your expectations and let people discuss their point without commenting presuppositions, regardless of how "evident" things are to you. That is what I called allowing people to express their views, however irrational they may seem. Argumentation is to share views and ideas.
You have a great day.
elamigo
you are talking like it this is not about an agenda. Non agenda people settle very quickly on objective beliefs. they can keep bad religion from evidence based beliefs.
some people actually are here only to fight religion. With that as the primary back drop, how do we approach all conversations about beliefs? What happens when we have real examples of rational beliefs? when answering to "fight religion" first? Just think of how you would market everything we say when we are promoting "fight religion in the united states." from inside and from abroad?
"Majority doesn't mean right" when challenged that more people believe in "something" over nothing because of science and commonsense". And right after that ... rep points are used when demonstrating that "fight religion" is a worthy cause in omitting some data.
its almost psychotic thinking in real time. I have no idea how people can flounce so much and hold a straight face.
the periodic table. Its a picture of him, she, it, whatever. You can google the PT ... if you forget.
but claiming no proof ... of any type of god belief ... well, that's why we limit some discussions on belief, the deny everything because we are fighting religion starts to look stupid.
Here is the point, YOU don't expect any evidence. Have you closely read writers that show what they believe is enough to believe there is a designer. Or are you simply repeating what others say, or trying to control people to express what they see enough evidence for them to conclude that there is a deity?
So you don't expect to see any. Well, sit down with an open mind and maybe someone comes up with some interesting information. Not expecting any is an indicator or a close mind.
My suggestion? Leave your expectations and let people discuss their point without commenting presuppositions, regardless of how "evident" things are to you. That is what I called allowing people to express their views, however irrational they may seem. Argumentation is to share views and ideas.
You have a great day.
elamigo
Good grief!
All I was doing was telling Salty that he is welcome to ask for evidence, but that I don't think the kind of evidence he wants will be forthcoming.
I rarely say anything about my own personal beliefs. I'm not expecting to find anything here. It looks like you made some unwarranted assumptions about me.
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) In any case, the idea that death is not the end, but the beginning of our next life makes accepting the passing of loved ones easier for me. I imagine them cheering us on in our endurance race as they come to realize what the actual deal is. 
Sadly, I think that personal encounter is what it does take. That has to be what called by the Father is all about. What bothers me is why it seems so random and isn't more widespread. I had ZERO interest in making any such connection with a God, but I diligently and rigorously sought the peace of Nirvana in meditation. Who knew that was God! 
