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I was raised Catholic. We were encouraged to pray a lot.
Throughout my life people have said "pray, I'll pray for you, etc." about any matter that came up.
You pray for good outcomes - otherwise, why bother?
Prayer is to ask "God" for stuff, meditation is to commune with "god" or source, or your higher self.
But okay. I will accept that this thread produced no answers as to WHY anyone would be encouraged to pray for anything, given "God" is all-knowing, has all of the answers, knows best, etc.
I was hoping one person might be able to apply logic to WHY people pray under those circumstances, but it really doesn't matter.
The debates on this thread are ridiculous (as a side note). I don't know why I ever post here.
No, no...don't leave.
Ur great...and this thread has been great. My kinda exchange!
Look...think up another thread, and put it up...I'm sure I'll enjoy that too.
Just go with a standard: You know...Problem of Evil/Suffering / There's a gazillion different Religions & they can't all be right / Religion causes war / etc, etc.
Com'on...I know you got it in ya!!
OK, then we are back to the same place wherein the fact is that most people praying are not telling their God what to do even if that's how you may perceive it.
I've never heard anyone say, "We've got a problem here. Let's tell God to fix it." Some might even be afraid of being struck by lightning for such impertinence!
Yes, it's widely considered impertinent / disrespectful to order god around. We plead with him for crumbs from the table, and Jesus is even portrayed as a sort of go-between with the presumably more cantankerous Father. I think because this is the implicit mindset, then to get one of those crumbs now and again is a cause for gratitude and praise, and to not get it, well, we don't want to honk him off, or he might press the "smite" button on his desktop computer. So we are trained to make excuses for his lack of response.
In the end it's just a big charade to teach learned helplessness. If people are convinced they can't function without god's daily "help", then they are bound to the church that mediates access to god either through claimed literal intermediaries like priests and church hierarchy, or through teaching / counseling / indoctrination / exhortation / discipline / ritual in general.
I am sure this is how one gets accustomed to the habit of prayer, too, starting young. The scriptures urge people to "pray without ceasing", which inherently means you're going to ask for a lot of stuff that's not critically important or likely to happen anyway, but it fosters the notion that you are dependent on god's largesse for your life to go well generally. If you live a sufficiently privileged life --which many of us in the West do, I'm not talking great wealth but just a baseline set of expected comforts and luxuries -- and if you don't come right down to the nubbins of needing a real miracle -- then it becomes easier to overlook/rationalize / defer those times when prayer is unanswered (or "anti-answered") as god seeking some "higher good" for you, "testing" you, or simply, god's "mysterious ways".
I see the deleterious spiritual effects of the extreme expectations that are evoked by the interpretations of so-called promises in the Bible. It is no surprise that you were more than just disillusioned by their failure to manifest in your life, mordant. They are quite preposterous and surely the result of wishful thinking and not actual promises.
I suspect that it takes a Spirit whose maturity and control equals that of Jesus for any serious manifestations to be achieved. I have serious doubt about any of us EVER attaining that level of spiritual maturity and power. I suspect any promises were intended as incentives to TRY to emulate Jesus, NOT guarantees. Genuine, sincere, and truly unquestioning belief is not easy to come by.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801
Or if you need that real miracle, you didn't get it because your faith wasn't strong enough. We're supposed to be able to move mountains. If we can't, it's our own fault and insufficient faith. Sorry, no miracle for you.
I see the deleterious spiritual effects of the extreme expectations that are evoked by the interpretations of so-called promises in the Bible. It is no surprise that you were more than just disillusioned by their failure to manifest in your life, mordant. They are quite preposterous and surely the result of wishful thinking and not actual promises.
I suspect that it takes a Spirit whose maturity and control equals that of Jesus for any serious manifestations to be achieved. I have serious doubt about any of us EVER attaining that level of spiritual maturity and power. I suspect any promises were intended as incentives to TRY to emulate Jesus, NOT guarantees. Genuine, sincere, and truly unquestioning belief is not easy to come by.
I am sure that in some denominations there are few to no "extreme expectations" and someone would pray for something specific, if at all, only in the event of desperate need. You can certainly find Christians who see prayer primarily or even exclusively as a way to finagle their own thinking into acceptance of their lot (the "prayer is to change your mind, not god's" school of thought).
While I agree that the "promises" were preposterous, many of them are extremely specific and unambiguous and I do not recall any of them having anything to do with the "maturity or control" of the spirit of the one doing the praying. Inherently, they are promises god is making to his followers, so their fulfillment is on god. The only qualification is to be a follower and have a tiny bit of faith, which, I think is proven by the very fact of making a request and expecting a response. It is just a "mustard seed", a little speck of faith if you will. So this nonsense of blaming it on insufficient faith / maturity / control is equally preposterous.
Yes it contributed to my disillusion but not in the sense of "bitter disappointment that still animates me to this day". It was just information. It's not a point of pride that I was taken in by it. I'm just glad I got it sorted, however belatedly. The crux is that life / the universe doesn't owe me anything, nor is it more than a series of events over which I don't have complete control. No narrative such as, say, a religious one, can try to explain how it is fair or just, or make it so, or add guarantees to it. For me, that is the core truth. It allowed me to shed a huge burden of wildly unrealistic expectations.
If, as in your narrative, there is still a Man Behind the Curtains, forging me into something better, well ... I don't see how that's any less ridiculous, but it certainly isn't relevant to this life here and now. If I find myself in a refined and more mature state post-death, I'll be sure to look you up and we'll have a beer or whatever they drink in the afterlife and have a good laugh about it.
I am sure that in some denominations there are few to no "extreme expectations" and someone would pray for something specific, if at all, only in the event of desperate need. You can certainly find Christians who see prayer primarily or even exclusively as a way to finagle their own thinking into acceptance of their lot (the "prayer is to change your mind, not god's" school of thought).
While I agree that the "promises" were preposterous, many of them are extremely specific and unambiguous and I do not recall any of them having anything to do with the "maturity or control" of the spirit of the one doing the praying. Inherently, they are promises god is making to his followers, so their fulfillment is on god. The only qualification is to be a follower and have a tiny bit of faith, which, I think is proven by the very fact of making a request and expecting a response. It is just a "mustard seed", a little speck of faith if you will. So this nonsense of blaming it on insufficient faith / maturity / control is equally preposterous.
Yes it contributed to my disillusion but not in the sense of "bitter disappointment that still animates me to this day". It was just information. It's not a point of pride that I was taken in by it. I'm just glad I got it sorted, however belatedly. The crux is that life / the universe doesn't owe me anything, nor is it more than a series of events over which I don't have complete control. No narrative such as, say, a religious one, can try to explain how it is fair or just, or make it so, or add guarantees to it. For me, that is the core truth. It allowed me to shed a huge burden of wildly unrealistic expectations.
If, as in your narrative, there is still a Man Behind the Curtains, forging me into something better, well ... I don't see how that's any less ridiculous, but it certainly isn't relevant to this life here and now. If I find myself in a refined and more mature state post-death, I'll be sure to look you up and we'll have a beer or whatever they drink in the afterlife and have a good laugh about it.
Just wondering why you would have to pray - God knows everything - why would I presume to tell "him" what to do? I am interested in the logic of prayer to a all-knowing deity. Why would a mere mortal be directing things?
My belief is that God isn't all knowing as it pertains to how we live our lives ... because we're given free will to do what we wish to do - to either communicate with Him or not. Rather than directing our lives - we're talking about over 7 billion people - God watches over us and is with us whenever we choose for Him to be there. If we don't choose for Him to be - believe me, He won't. Hence, the degradation of societies. But I digress.
For me, praying is the same as calling. We call our parents right? So if we choose to think of God as our Heavenly Father (which I do), then I call Him whenever I feel like it. For instance, a few days before this past Thanksgiving, I got a sprained ankle. So I made the call for Help! And He answered. Even though I heard a cracking noise, it hurt like heck, had black and blue bruises and lots of swelling, I never did go to a doctor.
But I did learn about the RICE protocol for sprained ankles, so I just added a "P" in front for prayer - PRICE.
And it's kind of nice that I don't have to use a cell phone ... I can just talk to Him with my thoughts... which by the way, is the mode of conversation in the next world.
I was raised Catholic. We were encouraged to pray a lot.
Throughout my life people have said "pray, I'll pray for you, etc." about any matter that came up.
You pray for good outcomes - otherwise, why bother?
Prayer is to ask "God" for stuff, meditation is to commune with "god" or source, or your higher self.
But okay. I will accept that this thread produced no answers as to WHY anyone would be encouraged to pray for anything, given "God" is all-knowing, has all of the answers, knows best, etc.
I was hoping one person might be able to apply logic to WHY people pray under those circumstances, but it really doesn't matter.
The debates on this thread are ridiculous (as a side note). I don't know why I ever post here.
You were expecting a debate? it is simply a discussion forum.
And again, now you are back to referring to people asking God for things, after just reiterating to me that you meant telling God what to do. Maybe proofread to make sure you are clear about what you are asking.
In general, it seems that either way, you are trying to say that there should be no need for prayer if God already knows everything and has all the answers.
I gave you a valid reason for that. People ask for guidance. We are presented with choices and decisions throughout life, some of them difficult. If God knows everything and has all the answers, why wouId a believer not want to tap into that knowledge by connecting with such a source?
Just wondering why you would have to pray - God knows everything - why would I presume to tell "him" what to do? I am interested in the logic of prayer to a all-knowing deity. Why would a mere mortal be directing things?
God is like a Father. He wants to be loved and have mortals have enough respect for him to ask him for things they need, and talk to him like he is a Father. Many pray selfishly. In the Lords prayer Jesus put the Father first, then asked for self things.
I doubt he listens to any who practice sin when they know it is sin.
On a slight tangent, what about asking others to pray for you?
I see that online a lot, asking strangers to pray for someone; I even saw a series of billboards asking for prayers for a particular person out near Palm Desert, CA, about 20 years ago.
That almost seems like god is taking a poll, and if enough people vote "help them!", he'll step in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule
I believe that Positive Conscious Energy can be specifically directed and potentially be of benefit.
God manifests by and through consciousness, so it has that primo quality.
Thus, the "Power of Prayer".
Why would God's grace hinge on getting others to pray for you? Is grace based on winning a popularity contest? On convincing as many people as possible that you are worthy? While those who suffer alone...suffer alone?
Or is it something else entirely and has little to do with God at all - but rather if you can be moved to pray for others that's a benefit (not very altruistic) to yourself?
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I look forward to it!
it is simply a discussion forum.
