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So, since you are a sinner, are you wicked or upright?
I'm sure he's counting on "imputed righteousness" to be among the upright.
I never have gotten any sense that god is both delighted with, and inclined to respond to, anyone's prayers, righteous or not. Some people hoard their poker chips and only pray in extremis, and the 'unthinkable' happens more often than not even for them.
If prayer "changes things" then it's reasonable to expect at least lower rates of sickness, suffering, death through misadventure or illness, divorce -- the sorts of pivotal and crucial needs people actually pray "hardest" for -- among the religious. There is no significant credible difference I can find between likely prayers and unlikely prayers. I never saw the needle move for me when I was a believer, at least on critical matters. Who cares all that much if god doesn't help you find your car keys ... I can allow him indifference to that, but not to the death or suffering of loved ones, the crushing of reasonable hopes and aspirations, and the like.
Of course being in the headspace now that I have zero expectations of a non-existent being, I just find the false hope of answered prayer to be sad and unfortunate.
I'm sure he's counting on "imputed righteousness" to be among the upright.
I never have gotten any sense that god is both delighted with, and inclined to respond to, anyone's prayers, righteous or not. Some people hoard their poker chips and only pray in extremis, and the 'unthinkable' happens more often than not even for them.
If prayer "changes things" then it's reasonable to expect at least lower rates of sickness, suffering, death through misadventure or illness, divorce -- the sorts of pivotal and crucial needs people actually pray "hardest" for -- among the religious. There is no significant credible difference I can find between likely prayers and unlikely prayers. I never saw the needle move for me when I was a believer, at least on critical matters. Who cares all that much if god doesn't help you find your car keys ... I can allow him indifference to that, but not to the death or suffering of loved ones, the crushing of reasonable hopes and aspirations, and the like.
Of course being in the headspace now that I have zero expectations of a non-existent being, I just find the false hope of answered prayer to be sad and unfortunate.
I think you've stated that very well.
I was still a christian when I had my kidney surgery and I prayed very hard to survive and be cured. And I did survive and was cured, Of course the average success rate for that particular surgery was something like 97%. On the other hand when my aunt and grandfather died, all my grandmother's praying didn't save them...because they were both heavy smokers and borderline alcoholics, and with my grandfather he had worked in a factory environment where carcinogens were heavy in the air. I distinctly remember when my aunt died, despite all the praying, my grandmother saying, "She's in a better place now", "God needed her", and so on. Sort of the "god works in mysterious ways" line of thinking. All the times I sat in church and heard prayers to end world hunger. Well? All the prayers for a world of peace. Well?
But, as you mention, god did help my grandmother find her car keys several times.
I was still a christian when I had my kidney surgery and I prayed very hard to survive and be cured. And I did survive and was cured, Of course the average success rate for that particular surgery was something like 97%.
But, as you mention, god did help my grandmother find her car keys several times.
I read that there was a study done about "medical" prayer; people having surgery who were prayed for had the same rate of survival, but had a higher incidence of complications. So when i had surgery and a friend said she'd pray for me, I said, "please don't." She must have anyway, because I had a lot of complications.
I do remember having my prayers answered once. When I was six, dad got a new car. The whole family piled in the station wagon to go pick it up. All the way there, I prayed fervently that I would get to ride home in the new car, and I did! Impressive because I had 5 other siblings; I was one of the youngest, and usually got overlooked in favor of my big brothers.
Note: I don't see ANY part of my story as having scientific credibility.
I read that there was a study done about "medical" prayer; people having surgery who were prayed for had the same rate of survival, but had a higher incidence of complications. So when i had surgery and a friend said she'd pray for me, I said, "please don't." She must have anyway, because I had a lot of complications.
I do remember having my prayers answered once. When I was six, dad got a new car. The whole family piled in the station wagon to go pick it up. All the way there, I prayed fervently that I would get to ride home in the new car, and I did! Impressive because I had 5 other siblings; I was one of the youngest, and usually got overlooked in favor of my big brothers.
Note: I don't see ANY part of my story as having scientific credibility.
I am sure this is how one gets accustomed to the habit of prayer, too, starting young. The scriptures urge people to "pray without ceasing", which inherently means you're going to ask for a lot of stuff that's not critically important or likely to happen anyway, but it fosters the notion that you are dependent on god's largesse for your life to go well generally. If you live a sufficiently privileged life --which many of us in the West do, I'm not talking great wealth but just a baseline set of expected comforts and luxuries -- and if you don't come right down to the nubbins of needing a real miracle -- then it becomes easier to overlook / rationalize / defer those times when prayer is unanswered (or "anti-answered") as god seeking some "higher good" for you, "testing" you, or simply, god's "mysterious ways".
OK, then we are back to the same place wherein the fact is that most people praying are not telling their God what to do even if that's how you may perceive it.
I've never heard anyone say, "We've got a problem here. Let's tell God to fix it." Some might even be afraid of being struck by lightning for such impertinence!
I am sure this is how one gets accustomed to the habit of prayer, too, starting young. The scriptures urge people to "pray without ceasing", which inherently means you're going to ask for a lot of stuff that's not critically important or likely to happen anyway, but it fosters the notion that you are dependent on god's largesse for your life to go well generally. If you live a sufficiently privileged life --which many of us in the West do, I'm not talking great wealth but just a baseline set of expected comforts and luxuries -- and if you don't come right down to the nubbins of needing a real miracle -- then it becomes easier to overlook / rationalize / defer those times when prayer is unanswered (or "anti-answered") as god seeking some "higher good" for you, "testing" you, or simply, god's "mysterious ways".
Or if you need that real miracle, you didn't get it because your faith wasn't strong enough. We're supposed to be able to move mountains. If we can't, it's our own fault and insufficient faith. Sorry, no miracle for you.
OK, then we are back to the same place wherein the fact is that most people praying are not telling their God what to do even if that's how you may perceive it.
I've never heard anyone say, "We've got a problem here. Let's tell God to fix it." Some might even be afraid of being struck by lightning for such impertinence!
I'm kind of perplexed at this response.
I was raised Catholic. We were encouraged to pray a lot.
Throughout my life people have said "pray, I'll pray for you, etc." about any matter that came up.
You pray for good outcomes - otherwise, why bother?
Prayer is to ask "God" for stuff, meditation is to commune with "god" or source, or your higher self.
But okay. I will accept that this thread produced no answers as to WHY anyone would be encouraged to pray for anything, given "God" is all-knowing, has all of the answers, knows best, etc.
I was hoping one person might be able to apply logic to WHY people pray under those circumstances, but it really doesn't matter.
The debates on this thread are ridiculous (as a side note). I don't know why I ever post here.
I was raised Catholic. We were encouraged to pray a lot.
Throughout my life people have said "pray, I'll pray for you, etc." about any matter that came up.
You pray for good outcomes - otherwise, why bother?
Prayer is to ask "God" for stuff, meditation is to commune with "god" or source, or your higher self.
But okay. I will accept that this thread produced no answers as to WHY anyone would be encouraged to pray for anything, given "God" is all-knowing, has all of the answers, knows best, etc.
I was hoping one person might be able to apply logic to WHY people pray under those circumstances, but it really doesn't matter.
The debates on this thread are ridiculous (as a side note). I don't know why I ever post here.
Or if you need that real miracle, you didn't get it because your faith wasn't strong enough. We're supposed to be able to move mountains. If we can't, it's our own fault and insufficient faith. Sorry, no miracle for you.
Yes, it is all the fault of the pray-er, somehow. Very convenient.
It is similar to another aspect of god's role ... everything in the world that is good, god gets "all the glory" for; anything that's bad, it's human failure. Quite the gig!
Yes, it is all the fault of the pray-er, somehow. Very convenient.
It is similar to another aspect of god's role ... everything in the world that is good, god gets "all the glory" for; anything that's bad, it's human failure. Quite the gig!
Perhaps a little of the martyr complex.
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