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The farthest reaches of our observable universe. The universe is far larger than that part of the universe that we can see or ever will be able to see because light beyond our observable universe can never reach us due to the faster than light expansion of space itself.
If God exists and dwells in a 'spirit' realm, a different dimension if you will, rather than the physical realm that we exist in then why would you expect to be able to see signs of him through a telescope?
Indeed, although maybe it's like how we once couldn't see waves of energy that now we can see by way of means other than the human eye, but another good question...
Once we consider the existence of something in a different dimension or realm of existence other than our own, we are again free to imagine whatever we like, and so we do. As if we've got more justification to believe such things than we really do.
"Don't pee down my back and tell me it's raining" sort of thing...
The existence of the quantum realm is not in dispute, LearnMe. It is where 95+% of our observable Reality exists at an energy level far above ours at the macro level of our measures and senses. It is very real and just as out of our reach as any inferred extra dimension but it is within ours.
My analogy of speed to energy level (frequency) is apt. We are walking in less than 5% of a Reality where 95+% exists in a light-speed spaceship and we are trying to figure out what is in the spaceship.
The farthest reaches of our observable universe. The universe is far larger than that part of the universe that we can see or ever will be able to see because light beyond our observable universe can never reach us due to the faster than light expansion of space itself.
If God exists and dwells in a 'spirit' realm, a different dimension if you will, rather than the physical realm that we exist in then why would you expect to be able to see signs of him through a telescope?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
Indeed, although maybe it's like how we once couldn't see waves of energy that now we can see by way of means other than the human eye, but another good question...
No, it's not like that. The speed of light is the maximum speed limit of anything traveling through space, as far as we know. Well, anything that can carry information at least. Nothing in space can exceed the speed of light. But the creation and expansion of space itself is not limited to the speed of light. Because non-gravitationally bound galaxies and stars beyond the scope of our observable universe are being carried away from us by the expansion of space faster than light can travel, the light from those galaxies is getting farther and farther away from us even though the light itself is moving in our direction.
It's like if you are standing still and looking at a train which is moving directly away from you at say, 20 miles per hour, and someone on the front of that train is walking toward the rear of that train at a speed of 3 miles per hour. Even though that person is walking toward you he can never reach you because the train is carrying him away from you faster than he can walk toward you. That's how it is with everything beyond the scope of our observable universe. The light can never reach us because the speed of light is slower than the expansion of space. In order for anything outside of our observable universe to reach us it would have to be moving faster toward us than it is being carried away from us by the expansion of space.
Quote:
Once we consider the existence of something in a different dimension or realm of existence other than our own, we are again free to imagine whatever we like, and so we do. As if we've got more justification to believe such things than we really do.
Nothing wrong with imagination though. If someone hadn't first imagined that man can fly the first airplane never would have been invented.
Quote:
"Don't pee down my back and tell me it's raining" sort of thing...
If God exists and dwells in a 'spirit' realm, a different dimension if you will, rather than the physical realm that we exist in then why would you expect to be able to see signs of him through a telescope?
Just so. One of the few consistent claims of theists is that god is not part of the physical universe, so the last place I'd argue a paucity of evidence is the physical realm, since that's not where believers claim god resides.
Gods have always been conveniently invisible exactly so that any description of god is unverifiable. One can then make any claim about god and be completely immune to any sort of accountability concerning that claim.
Just so. One of the few consistent claims of theists is that god is not part of the physical universe, so the last place I'd argue a paucity of evidence is the physical realm, since that's not where believers claim god resides.
Gods have always been conveniently invisible exactly so that any description of god is unverifiable. One can then make any claim about god and be completely immune to any sort of accountability concerning that claim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chief scum
The telescope requires light to see, and the light it uses is temporal light, so the only infinity it can seek is complete darkness, as the end of sight. Not seeing anything past itself. By it's nature, it does not seek the beginning of sight, it seeks the end of sight.
The Shechinah is eternal light. And it is not empty light.
God opened Moses eyes to beginning light at the burning bush that was not consumed.
Pharaoh couldn't see anything past himself. And also thought he could keep the Israelites from seeing anything past himself. And in his end he was kept in darkness while the Israelites walked in the light.
The existence of the quantum realm is not in dispute, LearnMe. It is where 95+% of our observable Reality exists at an energy level far above ours at the macro level of our measures and senses. It is very real and just as out of our reach as any inferred extra dimension but it is within ours.
My analogy of speed to energy level (frequency) is apt. We are walking in less than 5% of a Reality where 95+% exists in a light-speed spaceship and we are trying to figure out what is in the spaceship.
That's a bit of a shuffle there Mystic...
I don't recall questioning the quantum realm specifically, and of course quantum physics has been around for a long time now. I did not comment any of that was in dispute. You're not being very scientific when you describe that reality or energy level as "far above ours." By any measure or sense, why is it separate from our reality?
More specifically, I was addressing this comment; "If God exists and dwells in a 'spirit' realm, a different dimension if you will, rather than the physical realm that we exist in then why would you expect to be able to see signs of him through a telescope?"
Indeed it's quite the shuffle to go from the "spirit realm" to quantum physics, but given the Pantheist point of view, I suppose even that's not too far a stretch for some. Not per my understanding or way of thinking however.
No, it's not like that. The speed of light is the maximum speed limit of anything traveling through space, as far as we know. Well, anything that can carry information at least. Nothing in space can exceed the speed of light. But the creation and expansion of space itself is not limited to the speed of light. Because non-gravitationally bound galaxies and stars beyond the scope of our observable universe are being carried away from us by the expansion of space faster than light can travel, the light from those galaxies is getting farther and farther away from us even though the light itself is moving in our direction.
It's like if you are standing still and looking at a train which is moving directly away from you at say, 20 miles per hour, and someone on the front of that train is walking toward the rear of that train at a speed of 3 miles per hour. Even though that person is walking toward you he can never reach you because the train is carrying him away from you faster than he can walk toward you. That's how it is with everything beyond the scope of our observable universe. The light can never reach us because the speed of light is slower than the expansion of space. In order for anything outside of our observable universe to reach us it would have to be moving faster toward us than it is being carried away from us by the expansion of space.
Nothing wrong with imagination though. If someone hadn't first imagined that man can fly the first airplane never would have been invented.
Golden showers?
Seems we might all be thinking different things here. I'm not sure, but I wasn't referring to the expansion of our universe or what we can either observe or theorize with respect to all that has happened and/or is still happening and/or will continue to happen in terms of the known universe. It's about realms for which we have no evidence or justification to claim they exist that I was referring to. What you also called the "spirit realm." Two very different things.
I also never commented there is anything wrong with imagination per se. Quite the contrary in fact (as I also note in my Ten Truths). Conflating these sorts of distinctions only serves to confuse these issues rather than clarify them. If we want to better examine this dynamic as well, we'd have to distinguish when imagination is a good thing or productive in terms of whatever the goal might be. If the goal is the truth of these matters or to distinguish what exists or doesn't, then imagination can also sometimes create faulty logic and/or false conclusions. It's easy to imagine things that aren't really there. Especially since we're emotional beings.
Imagination is a great thing when it comes to producing good SciFi movies too, but do Ewoks, Kowakian monkey-lizards and Wookies actually exist? If you get my drift...
At least part of the challenge is to distinguish between a) what can't be seen due to limited ability to see what is actually there or b) what can't be seen because there is actually nothing there to be seen. Sure seems to me that too many people are not only unable to make these kinds of distinctions but don't care or bother to do so, for personal reasons that better suit their desires.
When a stranded mariner with a powerful telescope out on the open sea can see no land, is it because of the telescope or because there is no land there to be seen? Making these kinds of distinctions can be a life or death scenario in the real world. By contrast, in the "spirit realm" there is little consequence to distinguish what is actually there from what is not.
Just so. One of the few consistent claims of theists is that god is not part of the physical universe, so the last place I'd argue a paucity of evidence is the physical realm, since that's not where believers claim god resides.
Gods have always been conveniently invisible exactly so that any description of god is unverifiable. One can then make any claim about god and be completely immune to any sort of accountability concerning that claim.
Or when people have claimed gods that were not invisible, they were eventually (sooner or later) found out to be frauds...
"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"
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