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If you've read the Bible then you KNOW that's not true.
Oh yes I've read the Bible.
Here's what it says which proves predestination of the "elect"
"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many [not ALL] brothers and sisters. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." Romans 8:29-30
How about these:
"Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. Let their eyes be darkened that they may not see" Romans 11:7-10
“For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion…. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.” Romans 9:15-18
28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28
Now, Mink you simply cannot argue that "many" means All mankind. "Many" does NOT mean all.
"Many of our friends left the reception."
Can "many" mean "All our friends left the reception"?
Or "those".
"Those" simply cannot refer to ALL.
"Those of us" would never be thought of as "All of us".
Or "The elect and the rest"
The elect refers to one group and "the rest" refers to those left out of the elect. You cannot argue logically that "the rest" can be a part of the elect.
But then you are Mink, and an apologist "par excellence"--and therefore you can argue in whatever illogical way you choose.
If you expect God to come to you in cymbals crashing...roaring voice...3 mile high entity that looks "god-like", you've got the wrong image of God.
God doesn't often come to us with bells clanging. He's a voice...a calming, steady voice...He has probably spoken to you more times than you can imagine. Yet, you ignored Him. You're trying to see him in *your* image...and not in the image of Him...
Not.
Even.
Close.
If you've read the Bible then you KNOW that's not true.
Another comment suggesting no one need wait as suggested in the OP of this thread...
I was raised a Catholic, and I grew up believing everything about Jesus doing all he did in the way of an appearance and all those miracles described in the Bible. Up to and including his cruxifixction and rising from the dead. I don't believe those things anymore, but if anyone does, why wouldn't we or shouldn't we expect the same sort of thing to happen again? In no uncertain terms like described in the Bible happened before?
Why is anyone made to "strain" for contact now? Or is that what's needed when trying to make out something you think is there but really isn't? Hard for me to think otherwise...
Why is God coming to earth as an incarnation while He can do anything sitting in the upper world?
An Industrialist created a factory in which inanimate items and non-inanimate workers exist. The factory is His property. All the workers need not be good and disciplined. The owner comes to the factory every day to supervise the workers. The owner is visiting His own property. Is there something abnormal in this? If the owner is visiting the factory of somebody else, we may be interested to know the reason. Moreover, some employees desire to see the owner everyday to discuss with him about their doubts face to face. The owner feels that face to face talks are more effective than talking over phone. The presence of the owner inspires them to work more efficiently.
Similarly, this creation is done by God Himself and this creation is His personal property. He has every right to visit and supervise His own property. He is not visiting the creation of somebody else. There is a special satisfaction among ardent devotes to see Him, to talk with Him directly for clearing their doubts, to touch His feet and serve Him and to spend their life time with Him. God also feels happy to satisfy them and feels that His personal visit will inspire them more in their spiritual progress. Hence, God visits this creation frequently in the form of human incarnations. God is called as ‘Pashupati’ (owner of animals like cows, buffaloes, bulls, donkeys etc.) and we must note that the human being is said to be a social animal.
You listened to the wrong people. The bible is clear-God sent another. He did not come to earth. It amazes me that those saying they follow Jesus just outright refuse to listen to him. He is clear at John 17:1-6,26= a prayer to his Father in heaven--Verse 3-This means eternal life, their knowing you( Father) THE ONLY TRUE GOD and the one whom you sent forth Christ Jesus--- 2 major points there--The Father is the only true God and he sent Jesus. verse 6= YHWH(Jehovah) verse 26 = YHWH(Jehovah)-- It takes believing Jesus.
God created man and gave the earth and dominion over the earth to man, so man rejected God and by default gave the earth to the devil who because lord of the earth ....... So for 4 thousand years the devil had spiritual authority over the earth, then Jesus an incarnation of God was created in Mary, so by the sacrifice of Jesus gave spiritual authority back over to God through the man Jesus who became Great through God
God created man and gave the earth and dominion over the earth to man, so man rejected God and by default gave the earth to the devil who because lord of the earth ....... So for 4 thousand years the devil had spiritual authority over the earth, then Jesus an incarnation of God was created in Mary, so by the sacrifice of Jesus gave spiritual authority back over to God through the man Jesus who became Great through God
I don’t believe the Devil is in control of the earth for one minute.
He has no authority whatsoever.
It’s like saying Putin is not in control of his actions, but blame it on Satan.
So a war criminal can blame his crimes on the Devil?
I don’t believe the Devil is in control of the earth for one minute.
He has no authority whatsoever.
It’s like saying Putin is not in control of his actions, but blame it on Satan.
So a war criminal can blame his crimes on the Devil?
Have you watched the news lately? Evil is rampant!
Have you watched the news lately? Evil is rampant!
A statement that could be plausibly made at any point in human history and therefore on its own, meaningless.
Especially with a theologically loaded word like evil, which need only be "that with which I do not agree".
Although I'll admit that Putin is such a caricature of disordered thinking that the label is certainly evocative, he is really just the most recent in a long line of self absorbed ruthless sociopaths which many are all too eager to align with their favorite bogeymen -- evil, atheism, what have you -- when it is just the banality of a selfish child with too many toys and too much power, which is what actually needs addressing.
The irony is that if this ends up in global nuclear escalation you guys (the few who are left) will be coming along afterwards saying, "if only you had listened to us this wouldn't have happened" and a lot of people will believe that, in extremis. So it goes.
Never quite sure what to believe, but I'm quite sure I don't believe most of what I'm reading in this thread...
At least part of the confusion comes from these notions involving a physical appearance and these requirements having to do with Israel which at best is just one religious version. Certainly not all or even most religions.
Then too are all the testaments from so many people including some posting in this forum who claim Jesus has not only returned in one form or another, but has done so and continues to do so many times, over and over again. They have felt his presence one way or another. Some on a daily basis! So which is it? Are we awaiting his return or are most of us just missing it?
Needless to say, it's hard to believe what so many people seem to believe along these lines. For so many reasons...
Without my encounter, I would still be as puzzled by it as you seem to be, LearnMe. I would never have put in the time and effort I did to find scientific support.
Here's what it says which proves predestination of the "elect"
"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many [not ALL] brothers and sisters. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." Romans 8:29-30
How about these:
"Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. Let their eyes be darkened that they may not see" Romans 11:7-10
“For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion…. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.” Romans 9:15-18
28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28
Now, Mink you simply cannot argue that "many" means All mankind. "Many" does NOT mean all.
"Many of our friends left the reception."
Can "many" mean "All our friends left the reception"?
Or "those".
"Those" simply cannot refer to ALL.
"Those of us" would never be thought of as "All of us".
Or "The elect and the rest"
The elect refers to one group and "the rest" refers to those left out of the elect. You cannot argue logically that "the rest" can be a part of the elect.
But then you are Mink, and an apologist "par excellence"--and therefore you can argue in whatever illogical way you choose.
Sorry thrill, but I completely forgot about this thread!
Do I believe that SOME are "predestined" to Heaven? Yes, I do.
HOWEVER (and that's a BIG 'HOWEVER'), it does NOT mean that OTHERS are not meant to go to Heaven!
Just because we're not ALL "predestined" to be "kings" doesn't mean that the rest of us are "predestined" to fail...and be ''outcasts."
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