Jesus Christ of the Gospels Never Existed. He's a Myth and I Can Prove It (Part 1). (evidence, moral)
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Jesus was NOT a prominent or important secular person, Thrill any more than you are. Why the hell do you think He would be written about by historians? He was a nobody-itnerant rabbi in the remotest region of the vast Roman Empire during an era of limited coverage of any significance. When His adherents became a nuisance to the Roman authorities that is when they got attention and tried to explain Him and His impact..
That's so absolutely NOT true, Mystic. All the synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was famous throughout Israel and even beyond Israel's borders.
And news of Him immediately went out everywhere into all the surrounding region of Galilee. Mark 1:28
And his fame went throughout all Syria. Matthew 4:24
And reports about him went out into every place in the surrounding region. Luke 4:37
Everybody who was anybody had heard of this famous miracle worker who was feeding 5,000 people with a couple of loaves of bread and 2 fish and raising people from the dead. Come on, Mystic. The guy was a rock star. And we're supposed to believe that after all this--and causing an earthquake and darkness all over the region and zombies coming out of their graves and speaking to people in Jerusalem and then Jesus rising from the dead three days after hundreds saw him die on the cross and then to top it all off he appears to 500 people at one time after rising.
And after all this are you actually going to try to convince us that the Romans didn't have the slightest bit of interest in investigating a man walking around alive three days days and beyond that they had just crucified three days earlier???????????
Come on! Either they guy was so famous that every historian of the period would have written about him and his miracles and the Romans certainly would have tried to rearrest a guy they'd just crucified....
OR
The whole story is just a fabrication concocted by the gospels writers for religious purposes to add meat to the new religion they were pushing on people.
So considering:
“In the entire Christian century, Jesus is not mentioned by a single Greek or Roman historian, religious scholar, politician, philosopher or poet. His name never occurs in a single inscription, and it is never found in a single piece of private correspondence. Zero! Zip references!”
— Bart Ehrman (c.2012)
Come on, Mystic. You're an emeritus professor. You're an intelligent person. Put 2 and 2 together. Which is the more plausible, reasonable, believable conclusion to your rational intelligent mind?
Last edited by thrillobyte; 10-20-2022 at 03:05 PM..
Much of the bible IS factual history. Archaeological evidence proves that, whether to be considered 'biblical' or secular.
Do you believe that once that bible was written, that Christians STOPPED looking for evidence? People are still on the hunt for Noah's Ark...and the Ark of the Covenant. After how many thousands of years, they still haven't given up hope. Many have come before them and claimed, "THIS is Noah's Ark!" The Catholic church didn't simply swallow that claim, nor do they swallow other claims to some 'divine thing'.
The Church doesn't want to be wrong any more than secular people want to be wrong.
And yes, I have heard Christians say that the bible was literally written by God. Then again, what does that even mean?
Written by God's hand? With His 'pen'? On His 'tablet'? His words, written in hand, dictated to someone else?
Does ALL of that really matter?
You've said yourself phet that it's about the message. Christians believe that it matters WHO brought the message... a message that wasn't brought before them. While the message was written, it wasn't written as gospel, UNTIL it was written. Until that point, it was only oral.
But Mink, we have plenty of posters right here in this forum over time who have spent oodles of time trying to prove what's in the bible. That's what christians on here post FAR MORE than "the message". Twice I've started threads to discuss religious principles. The first one went nowhere. The second one got a tiny bit of traction. And it was a wide open door to discuss ANY religious principle.
But Mink, we have plenty of posters right here in this forum over time who have spent oodles of time trying to prove what's in the bible.
I don't agree.
There may have been "plenty of posters right here in this forum over time who have spent oodles of time trying to prove what's in the bible", but they're not trying to prove anything from an unbiased position.
They're not trying to prove what's IN the bible so much as they're trying to prove what's NOT. Just ask Thrill,
Granted. A lot of bible touters aren't doing it from an unbiased position either. However, the RCC doesn't just..."admit" every single solitary claim of divinity JUST because someone says so. They don't just take some pig farmer's word about how Jesus came to him, and told him to build a chapel somewhere in Mexico. Even decades, and even centuries later, the RCC hasn't put their "stamp of approval" on events that MAY have happened to others...
Quote:
That's what christians on here post FAR MORE than "the message". Twice I've started threads to discuss religious principles. The first one went nowhere. The second one got a tiny bit of traction. And it was a wide open door to discuss ANY religious principle.
Maybe because people believe "religious" and "principles" belong in the Philosophy section...or even the "Psychology" section".
There's probably not going to be a 'meeting of the minds' in that regard. After all, there will always be people who believe that it's o.k. to 'fib' to your boss about taking a day off from work...and no one will be the wiser.
But in God's eyes, would that be o.k. to lie to your boss?
So many believe that they're little 'gods' unto themselves.
That's so absolutely NOT true, Mystic. All the synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was famous throughout Israel and even beyond Israel's borders.
<Snip>
You get so wordy! Come on, Thril, you can't have it both ways. you can;t claim it is all myth and then try to use the legends to prove that He was famous!!! Besides, I said as a SECULAR FIGURE. You are talking about His religious persona. Virtually all religious figures had embellished stories about them few historians wrote about them back then. Emperors, Kings, Generals, Senators, etc. yes, but not religious figures.
You get so wordy! Come on, Thril, you can't have it both ways. you can;t claim it is all myth and then try to use the legends to prove that He was famous!!! Besides, I said as a SECULAR FIGURE. You are talking about His religious persona. Virtually all religious figures had embellished stories about them few historians wrote about them back then. Emperors, Kings, Generals, Senators, etc. yes, but not religious figures.
Oh my heavens, Mystic. Talk about a dodge, and not a very good dodge at that. As a professor emeritus (or so you claim) I had expected you to dodge the issue but I had you figured for putting up a better dodge than that.
How exactly am I proving he is famous by pointing out the stories of fame in the gospels are bogus? It was a simple question: either the gospels stories of Jesus fame are true and enough historians would have heard about this famous preacher from Galilee and written about him, or the gospel stories are phony as a $3 bill and nobody would have written about him. And big surprise! Nobody wrote about him. So as an intelligent person (and I am possibly mistaking this), do you insist Jesus was famous over the whole area as the gospels say and yet not a single historian or writer of the era wrote a single word about this famous man from Galilee?
And what about the Romans who crucified him. You completely sidestepped that question.Do you think they'd just let him traipse around Jerusalem and Galilee and not try to rearrest him after crucifying him?
Last edited by thrillobyte; 10-20-2022 at 11:14 PM..
You get so wordy! Come on, Thril, you can't have it both ways. you can;t claim it is all myth and then try to use the legends to prove that He was famous!!! Besides, I said as a SECULAR FIGURE. You are talking about His religious persona. Virtually all religious figures had embellished stories about them few historians wrote about them back then. Emperors, Kings, Generals, Senators, etc. yes, but not religious figures.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
Oh my heavens, Mystic. Talk about a dodge, and not a very good dodge at that. As a professor emeritus (or so you claim) I had expected you to dodge the issue but I had you figured for putting up a better dodge than that.
How exactly am I proving he is famous by pointing out the stories of fame in the gospels are bogus? It was a simple question: either the gospels stories of Jesus fame are true and enough historians would have heard about this famous preacher from Galilee and written about him, or the gospel stories are phony as a $3 bill and nobody would have written about him. And big surprise! Nobody wrote about him. So as an intelligent person (and I am possibly mistaking this), do you insist Jesus was famous over the whole area as the gospels say and yet not a single historian or writer of the era wrote a single word about this famous man from Galilee?
And what about the Romans who crucified him. You completely sidestepped that question.Do you think they'd just let him traipse around Jerusalem and Galilee and not try to rearrest him after crucifying him?
Jesus wasn't remotely famous in that primitive era, Thrill. There was no widespread general awareness of anything back then! Stop thinking like a modern human in a mass media environment! There is no reason any historian of the era would have paid any attention to Him or His followers, period!
What you think about their recorded BELIEFS about Him is your business, but the lack of serious historian attention is NOT probative! It would not have been of any interest to them. There would have been no reason for serious historians to even contemplate whatever was claimed about Him since He was of no importance to them or their society. Look at all the angst you are exhibiting because YOU were so gullible that you took it all in without question!
This derision is unwarranted since you (and Harry, et al.) call it fiction inappropriately, period.
The gospels and Acts follow all the rules of classical fiction, because that is what they are, period. Like animal Farm, they are allegories, false biographies.
The one format they do NOT follow is that used by ancient historians..
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Fiction is determined by the authors' INTENT, NOT your assessment of its historic accuracy!!!
Correct, and Mark is deliberately creating false biographies out of Paul's theological beliefs. That was his intent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
They were not specifically trying to write history but recounting what they actually believed had occurred.
False, Mark is deliberately creating false biographies out of Paul's theological beliefs. and the others invent their own version of the Jesus stories to sell their theological positions, hoping to replace the other gospels with theirs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Whether their BELIEFS were accurate enough for you or their descriptions too embellished is moot. Get a clue!
Perhaps you should follow your own advice, and get a clue.
We don't agree on that at all. However, we can all agree that it is inaccurate to categorize the Bible as "fiction".
Correct, the Bible is a collection of texts of different categories. To dismiss it all as fiction is either lazy, ignorant, or it is a throw away line, as is the goat herders phrase.
The message of Christianity is that you have to die. Wanna talk about it?
I thought it was to believe and worship God through Jesus.
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