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Reading many of these posts it seems obvious that many have not read the fourteenth chapter of first Corinthians.
Speaking in tongues is NOT for you to understand. It is to strengthen the holy spirit within the speaker.
The apostle Paul was convinced of the importance of Speaking in tongues.
Obviously if anyone is "Gu Gu Ga Ga"ing they are faking, that seems obvious to me. Likewise if any two people are doing it at the same time, it is clearly against God's Word.
See, you do not understand something. Quoting the Bible means nothing to an atheist. You might as well be quoting Elle magazine on their beauty tips, directed at men. About as useful. Let's have a discussion without referring to or quoting the bible.
It's so ingrained in your brain that you actually believe what that 2000 year old story book says. It's not "god's word"......it is the words of MEN. Those men were quite mad, as in insane. They were so delusional that they thought "the almighty" was speaking through them. Let me ask you something. Why do think it is inspired by god? I'll tell you why. You've been told that, by humans. It's the other way around. Gods are created by humans, that's how that works.
There really isn't any reason to proceed any further if you cannot let go of that crutch for a minute and have a delusion free discussion. You could tell us about your history.
Last edited by Northsouth; 06-24-2023 at 09:18 PM..
Reason: Edit to add
Everything we know about the charismatic practice of 'tongue-speaking' stems from a few lines of scripture from 1 Corinthians that were MISINTERPRETED back in 1906 with the Azuza Street Revival. Speaking in 'tongues' (as in 'angel speak' and NOT authentic foreign languages) had now emerged and the phenomenon of 'speaking in tongues' took off like wildfire. Prior to then ...we heard nothing at all about 'tongues'.
This doctrine of 'angel speak' came about when Paul uses hyperbole, i.e., exaggerated speech, with which to make a pertinent point. He says,
"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal."
FROM that exaggerated sentence came the present-day doctrine of Pentecostal 'tongues'! Yes, that's all it took for the gullible and the crafty (we can make big bucks out of this!) to jump on the charismatic bandwagon of the so-called 'spiritual gifts', 'gifts' that also include the ungodly shenanigans that we see in the online videos showing professed Christians behaving badly in a church setting.
Paul didn't speak the language of angels! In his frustration with the unruly state of the Church of Corinth he is saying that EVEN if HE DID speak the language of angels, it would mean NOTHING if he didn't have love. How one can miss the OBVIOUS hyperbole in use here is rather mind-numbing. Are people REALLY that dense?
An explanation as to what was going on in the Church of Corinth at the time Paul made his remarks about the misuse of foreign languages all being spoken at the same time by visiting foreigners has already been given on this thread.
Here is some information about the previously mentioned Azuza Street Revival in 1906. This event was the primary catalyst for the spread of Pentecostalism in the 20th century.
The Azusa Street Revival was a historic series of revival meetings that took place in Los Angeles, California. It was led by William J. Seymour, an African-American preacher. The revival began on April 9, 1906, and continued until roughly 1915.
On the night of April 9, 1906, Seymour and seven men were waiting on God on Bonnie Brae Street, "when suddenly, as though hit by a bolt of lightning, they were knocked from their chairs to the floor," and the other seven men began to speak in tongues and shout out loud praising God. The news quickly spread; the city was stirred; crowds gathered; services were moved outside to accommodate the crowds who came from all around; people fell down as they approached, and attributed it to God; people were baptized in the Holy Spirit and the sick were said to be healed.
The testimony of those who attended the Azusa Street Revival was "I am saved, sanctified, and filled with the Holy Ghost" in reference to the three works of grace of Holiness Pentecostals, the original branch of Pentecostalism. To further accommodate the crowds, an old dilapidated, two-story frame building at 312 Azusa Street in the industrial section of the city was secured. This building, originally built for an African Methodist Episcopal (AME) church, had more recently been used as a livery stable, storage building and tenement house
In this humble Azusa Street mission, a continuous three-year revival occurred and became known around the world. Stanley H. Frodsham, in his book, With Signs Following, quotes an eye-witness description of the scene: The revival was characterized by spiritual experiences accompanied with testimonies of physical healing miracles, worship services, and speaking in tongues.
The participants were criticized by some secular media and Christian theologians for behaviors considered to be outrageous and unorthodox, especially at the time. Today, the revival is considered by historians to be the primary catalyst for the spread of Pentecostalism in the 20th century.
Speaking in tongues is nothing but group delusion.
People who are practicing glossolalia don't make sounds that exist outside of the language(s) they speak. So if their language doesn't have a trilled r (as French does), or a v sound, or the ð/θ/ (the voiceless and voiced 'th-' in English), the speaker won't make those sounds. They can somehow speak a language that no one knows, including themselves, but they can't make sounds they don't know. They will follow stressing patterns of their language(s) only. If they only speak a tonal language, they will only 'tongue' a tonal language. And the sound patterns they produce will be far less varied - ie, more immediately repetitive - than normal language.
The only logical explanation for this is that they are not speaking any language, but are generating repeating gibberish that generally (but imperfectly) conforms to language patterns they understand.
Apparently, it's not that difficult to speak 'gibberish' quite fluently, although it would probably be more difficult for those who are not generally susceptible (easily influenced) to hypnosis or by groupthink. A married couple I once knew (yeah, here I go with an anecdotal account), while generally reluctant to do so, would at times demonstrate the phoniness of 'Pentecostal tongues'. As former Pentecostals, they had been taught 'tongues' by others in the church. They emphasized 'taught' rather than this being a gift from the Holy Spirit. They also said that probably most people could pick up 'tongues' with practice and improve the technique the more they used it.
One rather amusing (I guess) incident is where one of the marrieds mentioned above demonstrated their 'phony tongues' in front of someone who actually believed in 'angel speech'. And, this person actually interpreted in English what was intentionally fake from the get-go! Yep, the 'interpretation' was just as phony as 'the tongues'!
Yes, since 'gifts of the Spirit' - particularly 'tongues' since it is much easier to acquire than is healing the blind or the lame () - play such a huge part of Pentecostalism, many of its members DESIRE this 'gift'. They SO want to belong and have what others have. After all, these others have an 'infilling of the Holy Spirit' ...what's not to want the very same status of receiving God's favor? However, since many of them are unable to return to this 'stylized version of baby babble' they need to be taught to do so. Here is a video clip (just a little over 5 minutes) that speaks to this part of the thread topic:
Here is some information about the previously mentioned Azuza Street Revival in 1906. This event was the primary catalyst for the spread of Pentecostalism in the 20th century.
The Azusa Street Revival was a historic series of revival meetings that took place in Los Angeles, California. It was led by William J. Seymour, an African-American preacher. The revival began on April 9, 1906, and continued until roughly 1915.
On the night of April 9, 1906, Seymour and seven men were waiting on God on Bonnie Brae Street, "when suddenly, as though hit by a bolt of lightning, they were knocked from their chairs to the floor," and the other seven men began to speak in tongues and shout out loud praising God. The news quickly spread; the city was stirred; crowds gathered; services were moved outside to accommodate the crowds who came from all around; people fell down as they approached, and attributed it to God; people were baptized in the Holy Spirit and the sick were said to be healed.
The testimony of those who attended the Azusa Street Revival was "I am saved, sanctified, and filled with the Holy Ghost" in reference to the three works of grace of Holiness Pentecostals, the original branch of Pentecostalism. To further accommodate the crowds, an old dilapidated, two-story frame building at 312 Azusa Street in the industrial section of the city was secured. This building, originally built for an African Methodist Episcopal (AME) church, had more recently been used as a livery stable, storage building and tenement house
In this humble Azusa Street mission, a continuous three-year revival occurred and became known around the world. Stanley H. Frodsham, in his book, With Signs Following, quotes an eye-witness description of the scene: The revival was characterized by spiritual experiences accompanied with testimonies of physical healing miracles, worship services, and speaking in tongues.
The participants were criticized by some secular media and Christian theologians for behaviors considered to be outrageous and unorthodox, especially at the time. Today, the revival is considered by historians to be the primary catalyst for the spread of Pentecostalism in the 20th century.
Interesting, you think I would have known about this since I used to be Pentecostal. I may have, I just have forgotten. It is a very bizarre practice, this speaking in tongues. Since the Pentecostals believe everything 'of the world' is to be avoided at all costs, we weren't really taught anything, except how to act like a complete lunatic.
I see it as Hanni's particular "gift of tongues" because it is intricate and highly symbolic of the religious significance he has gleaned from the Bible. Of course, I believe we are ALL influenced by the very consciousness of God as reflected in Jesus Christ. Hanni is led to believe that DaVinci's consciousness could have been influenced and reflected in the "random" parts of his paintings that Hanni is discerning symbolically. Hanni's efforts are truly fascinating, part of a complex religious symbolism, and not at all random.
Wow, thats the nicest thing anyone has ever said about me, its going on a plaque. Meanwhile, I guess its not the time to talk about the dolphin, the eagle, the dragon, the serpent, the swine, not to mention a king whispering to an ape, the lioness, or God looking on lol
Nevertheless, the white ram will intervene.
damn my right eye.
Psalms
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
4Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
5Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
6His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
7The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
10More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
12Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.
Yea, lol. Funny stuff, made my century Mystic, a real friend, may the Lord bless you.
Well, I think when a person has a set belief whether it be praying in tongues or thinking its great sin for a man not to wear a hat, or what kind of food to eat.....A person is a law unto themselves, if they think its sin to eat a ham sandwich, it is to them. A person having extreme desire searching for the face of God in their walk are raised praying in the spirit and believing with great passion, but the courage and boldness alone says a lot about a person in a Pentecostal church becoming an elder having been raised a Royal Ranger going to Christian camps every summer where you had your first kiss and prom like banquet at 13. On the mind of every boy and girl was who was going to hold whose hand, what boy was going to ask what girl to the banquet and it was magic, pure Pentecostal Magic and passion you wont find elsewhere.
It is a shame that they are presented the way the world views them because again, Love cancels all debts, all laws, and like charity, charity and bringing one back to respect of the law will cover the multitude of sins. Again, I would stack them toe to toe with most, and they have more love and charity no matter what they believe.
Their belief allows them to see the world unlike many other religions, they see signs, and they often listen to the voice in their head a little too strong in my opinion, but to have that much faith KNOWING WITHOUT A DOUBT that their praying in the spirit is their spirit speaking to God on their behalf.
Imagine if you really and truly believed this.
Who is to even say there isnt communication happening with some?
Of course for myself, I see in the smoke.
Jus saying, the average Pentecostal is the salt of the earth who have so much faith and resolve, whose to say communication isnt happening? God communicates to people in all sorts of ways, but all we see of Pentecostals are vain self evolved people when in fact, the normal Pentecostal is so charitable that asking money from others is the farthest thing from his mind. He believes in seeding money but not to Tilton, the Pentecostals are the ones in countries all over the world being funded by the normal Pentecostal. Its like Mormons, who in the world could speak against them given their past, or the devoted Catholic, the regular Joe, or the grandma, or the sister, they arent like the crazies presented when your against a religion, we can find crazy in all of them, crazy takes no breaks.
Pentecostals are super cool people who will find you broke down, bring you home, fix your tire, feed you, put you to bed waking up to the smell of bacon because Jesus came over, and thats how it is to them, they dont know if you are an angel or some great test, they only know that if they do it in the name of Jesus, they have already won.
They really do believe in doing good, they believe in miracles and in their eyes, miracles happen. They believe they are being guided and that whether good or bad, God will make it good, and thats comforting and a happier way to live. I often envy them
Last edited by Hannibal Flavius; 06-26-2023 at 04:57 PM..
Everything we know about the charismatic practice of 'tongue-speaking' stems from a few lines of scripture from 1 Corinthians that were MISINTERPRETED back in 1906 with the Azuza Street Revival. Speaking in 'tongues' (as in 'angel speak' and NOT authentic foreign languages) had now emerged and the phenomenon of 'speaking in tongues' took off like wildfire. Prior to then ...we heard nothing at all about 'tongues'.
This doctrine of 'angel speak' came about when Paul uses hyperbole, i.e., exaggerated speech, with which to make a pertinent point. He says,
Absolutely correct. It is hyperbole and simile and self-evidently never intended to be taken literally.
However that is not 100% what these doctrines are based upon. Although it is close to 100% of how modern tongues-speaking's striking difference from the tonuges-speaking described in the book of Acts can be "explained".
I don't know if the notion originated with Azuza Street but it is still very much alive today. In fact if you go back through this thread you will I believe find the argument deployed.
The Pentecostal Church doesn't hold the monopoly of the things you mention, Hanni. The SDA Church I formerly belonged to encourages all the things you mention from its congregants as, I'm sure, do other denominations. And they don't need to flaunt so-called 'spiritual gifts' or 'miracles' to back them up.
Oh my stars, this just completely reiterates what you said above. It's not harmless, it takes lots of therapy and hard work to recognize that what you think you are experiencing or have experienced......was all a hoax. It's a harsh reality when it hits.
Anyone outside of this type of Pentecostalism would be startled that so many people in one room could all be insane? At the same time? I believe that might be called 'mass or collective hysteria' by professional terms, but what it is to these Pentecostal people is that they have been 'slain in the spirit' and they are overjoyed that they have discovered this feeling of complete elation. They believe they are chosen by god to be able to know this little secret and receive it.
It is just a group mentality. It isn't of god, it's exactly what it looks like, hysterical laughter and nonsense.
I did get a chuckle out of the what seemed to be a weirdly aroused redhead. She reminded me of that show Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman from the 70's.
I agree with describing it as a group mentality. It's a cultural phenomenon. It's amazing what people can talk themselves into believing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew in Minnesota
Speaking in tongues is nothing but group delusion.
People who are practicing glossolalia don't make sounds that exist outside of the language(s) they speak. So if their language doesn't have a trilled r (as French does), or a v sound, or the ð/θ/ (the voiceless and voiced 'th-' in English), the speaker won't make those sounds. They can somehow speak a language that no one knows, including themselves, but they can't make sounds they don't know. They will follow stressing patterns of their language(s) only. If they only speak a tonal language, they will only 'tongue' a tonal language. And the sound patterns they produce will be far less varied - ie, more immediately repetitive - than normal language.
The only logical explanation for this is that they are not speaking any language, but are generating repeating gibberish that generally (but imperfectly) conforms to language patterns they understand.
Give this man a cookie! This is a good explanation.
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) - play such a huge part of Pentecostalism, many of its members DESIRE this 'gift'. They SO want to belong and have what others have. After all, these others have an 'infilling of the Holy Spirit' ...what's not to want the very same status of receiving God's favor? However, since many of them are unable to return to this 'stylized version of baby babble' they need to be taught to do so. Here is a video clip (just a little over 5 minutes) that speaks to this part of the thread topic: 
damn my right eye.
