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Old 02-16-2024, 01:53 PM
 
18,976 posts, read 7,001,756 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Do you realize that non-believers or other-believers don't recognize the bible as an historical record?
Yes. I do recognize that. And it's a shame that you won't give Christians the same consideration that you expect us to give.
Quote:


And no, the "Bible is [NOT] verified by archaeology", although a few things in the bible have been verified.
Quite a few, actually. But "verified" is indeed in the eye of the beholder. If you've prejudged that it can never be verified, then to you, it won't be.
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Old 02-16-2024, 02:48 PM
 
18,249 posts, read 16,904,903 times
Reputation: 7553
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese View Post
God has His own will. He doesn't have to announce Jesus to the world in the way you might want Him to. He's not like us who are power hungry, and just want to show off. He chose to do it through those who believe on His name. He chose to work through humanity.

God can do whatever he wants. But if he claims to love humankind with this passion so great that all the world could not contain his love, then how and where is this love expressed when he performs absolutely no dramatic miracles to deliver man from their sins?


Put it this way, if your son was being swept away in a torrential river, would you dive into the water to try to pull him to safety or would you just follow him along the bank and just hope that somehow he manages to save himself by grabbing a rock or a branch along the way? If you opt for the latter then please don't try to sell the notion to anyone with half a brain that you love your son because people are going to look at your lack of action and say, "No way does this father truly love his child."


That is effectively what God is doing: he's running along the river bank hoping that mankind somehow finds a way to pull themselves out of the mire. But God could save everybody in one fell swoop by just performing a gigantic miracle that nobody could deny came from him. And what's the problem with that? God performed hundreds of gigantic miracles in the Old Testament. He stopped the rotation of the earth so that Joshua had more time to defeat the Amorites. Why not a similar miracle today?
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Old 02-16-2024, 02:55 PM
 
Location: Land of the Free
6,706 posts, read 6,711,443 times
Reputation: 7550
Christianity, like any religion, is about faith over facts. Will we ever have proof that Christ resurrected? Do I really think Moses parted the Red Sea? Do I really think the world is only 6,000 years old? Does any of this alter my faith? No.

What Christianity, and Christ's sacrifice offer, is grace. How many Christians today are successfully battling depression, addiction, or improving their lives due to God's grace? It's the most powerful force in the world for those who accept it, and for that there is plenty of evidence. Therefore, it is this faith that ultimately improves lives, not biblical stories that many of us who are faithful don't really believe.
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Old 02-16-2024, 02:56 PM
 
18,249 posts, read 16,904,903 times
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Quote:
If God loves mankind so much that he could redeem all of us with one simple miracle, then why doesn't he?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post

Because he does not want to

Well, then God doesn't love man as much as he claims to, simple as that. Don't judge a God by what he says, judge him by what he does. Actions always speak louder than words, even for a god as hypocritical as the Christian god.
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Old 02-16-2024, 03:10 PM
 
Location: Land of the Free
6,706 posts, read 6,711,443 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Well, then God doesn't love man as much as he claims to, simple as that. Don't judge a God by what he says, judge him by what he does. Actions always speak louder than words, even for a god as hypocritical as the Christian god.
Except God's grace gives us what WE need to act out his will on earth, it's up to us, not him. We judge ourselves by what we do, not what he does. His greatness is his encouragement for us not to sin, and to act according to his will.

The problem isn't that God is hypocritical, but that many believe in salvation through works. The problem with this is it now applies firm judgment to certain deeds, or makes religious ceremonies and acts the focus of our relationship with God, rather than our everyday interactions with people and personal decisions.

God's grace is the truth, being distracted by Biblical anecdotes and stories can actually pull you away from the core of his message.
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Old 02-16-2024, 03:16 PM
 
2,410 posts, read 1,443,647 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
God can do whatever he wants. But if he claims to love humankind with this passion so great that all the world could not contain his love, then how and where is this love expressed when he performs absolutely no dramatic miracles to deliver man from their sins?


Put it this way, if your son was being swept away in a torrential river, would you dive into the water to try to pull him to safety or would you just follow him along the bank and just hope that somehow he manages to save himself by grabbing a rock or a branch along the way? If you opt for the latter then please don't try to sell the notion to anyone with half a brain that you love your son because people are going to look at your lack of action and say, "No way does this father truly love his child."


That is effectively what God is doing: he's running along the river bank hoping that mankind somehow finds a way to pull themselves out of the mire. But God could save everybody in one fell swoop by just performing a gigantic miracle that nobody could deny came from him. And what's the problem with that? God performed hundreds of gigantic miracles in the Old Testament. He stopped the rotation of the earth so that Joshua had more time to defeat the Amorites. Why not a similar miracle today?

Of course this is assuming everyone would be happy about God's presence. What if the father reached his hand out to save the son, but the son rejects the hand and the miracle? What if the son chose to do the things that led him to be swept away in the river in the first place?


If God showed up right now, there will be a lot of people bummed out. Why? Because now they can't cheat other people no more. Now they can't abuse other people. Now they can't horde wealth for themselves. You might assume too much about the people of this world. If God showed up, everyone would now have to do things God's way. Many aren't willing to do that. This is why the time we have on this earth, is about finding out who wants God's way, and who doesn't.


Yet as for big miracles, even the miracle of the sun standing still, God didn't do anything until Joshua spoke out. So this is how God chooses to work. Through His people. If there are a lack of miracles, the problem is among the Church.
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Old 02-16-2024, 03:59 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,759 posts, read 24,261,465 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
Yes. I do recognize that. And it's a shame that you won't give Christians the same consideration that you expect us to give.

Quite a few, actually. But "verified" is indeed in the eye of the beholder. If you've prejudged that it can never be verified, then to you, it won't be.
I don't expect everyone, or for that matter, anyone to accept the fables told in the Buddhist Tipitaka. I only ask that they consider the PRINCIPLES. So, you're wrong again.
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Old 02-16-2024, 07:15 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma
17,773 posts, read 13,665,953 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post

Then why didn't God brazenly announce Jesus' death and resurrection to the entire world shortly after Jesus ascended--
The fact that God's plan using Jesus as the savior of the world and kind of uses a similar strategy as our modern day multi-level marketing scheme is hugely problematic for me.

And it has me wondering. I wonder if Amway has penetrated the Amazon rain forest tribal market by now?

Last edited by eddie gein; 02-16-2024 at 07:24 PM..
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Old 02-16-2024, 08:27 PM
 
18,249 posts, read 16,904,903 times
Reputation: 7553
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheseGoTo11 View Post
Christianity, like any religion, is about faith over facts. Will we ever have proof that Christ resurrected? Do I really think Moses parted the Red Sea? Do I really think the world is only 6,000 years old? Does any of this alter my faith? No.

What Christianity, and Christ's sacrifice offer, is grace. How many Christians today are successfully battling depression, addiction, or improving their lives due to God's grace? It's the most powerful force in the world for those who accept it, and for that there is plenty of evidence. Therefore, it is this faith that ultimately improves lives, not biblical stories that many of us who are faithful don't really believe.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheseGoTo11 View Post
Except God's grace gives us what WE need to act out his will on earth, it's up to us, not him. We judge ourselves by what we do, not what he does. His greatness is his encouragement for us not to sin, and to act according to his will.

The problem isn't that God is hypocritical, but that many believe in salvation through works. The problem with this is it now applies firm judgment to certain deeds, or makes religious ceremonies and acts the focus of our relationship with God, rather than our everyday interactions with people and personal decisions.

God's grace is the truth, being distracted by Biblical anecdotes and stories can actually pull you away from the core of his message.

If all you say is true, These, then Christianity is no different from a hundred other faiths operating in the world today. Christianity improves some people's lives, very true, but so does Buddhism, Hinduism, Bah'ai, Islam and pagan Celtic. All adherents to these faiths have their lives transformed for the better by their deep convictions that what they believe is truth.


What sets Christianity apart from all these other religions, then? Christians claim theirs is the one true religion and that all who don't accept Jesus go to hell, but Islam claims those who don't convert to Islam will not go to Paradise:


What is the punishment for disbelievers in the Quran?
"Allâh has promised the hypocrites; men and women, and the disbelievers, the Fire of Hell, therein shall they abide. It will suffice them. Allâh has cursed them and for them is the lasting torment." Sura 9


So in this respect there's nothing that sets Christianity apart from Islam and all the others. The Christian god works no external miracles or gives any hint he exists except in the hearts of those who believe fervently in him, but Allah works no external miracles or gives any hint he exists except in the hearts of those who believe fervently in him as well, and he changes the hearts of billions of adherents to Islam and makes their lives infinitely better for their belief in him just exactly like the Christian god does. So what difference does it make?


Would you agree with all I have said?
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Old 02-16-2024, 11:39 PM
 
79 posts, read 21,681 times
Reputation: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post

There were 4 different Gospel writers who were all eyewitnesses. The letters of the NT were eyewitnesses. The OT was written by men who lived through the events recorded. The church began shortly after, and has existed for 2000 years. The apostles gave their lives for it.
Let's see what the author of Luke has to say about this.

Luke:

Introduction
1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled[a] among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
-




There, the author himself, said that he wasn't one of the eyewitnesses.
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