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Everything that is testable within our experience came into existence not from or by "nothing" but by something else that previously existed. Nothing that is physical existed before the universe came into existence because the universe, itself, is physical (or has physical properties). We can agree on that. God is not physical otherwise he could not have created everything that is physical. It would be like saying, "This pen sitting here on my desk, by it's own physical properties, caused itself to be physical and also caused its very existence." That is just ridiculous. I doubt one would agree that God is physical.
God, if he did indeed created the universe, he could not have began to exist when the universe began to exist (hence my previous example of the pen). So before the universe existed there wasn't anything, right? That would include time, right? So, at the beginning of the universe space was created, along with matter, and also time. It could (possibly) be agreed that anything created or made takes up, space, matter, and time, right? So if it does take time to make or create something then how in the world (ha) would something have been "made or created" before there was space, matter, and especially time? But to ask that question would be pretty ridiculous. It would be like asking, "Before anything could have been made or created, how was anything (or something; God) made or created?"We see that by definition of who God is, he could not have been created.
You make too many assumptions.
No physical properties before the big bang? - you don't know that.
No time before the big bang - you don't know that.
We do not know what was going on before the big bang, but what the maths shows, is that OUR space time, started at the big bang.
Darwin was Wrong! Man's still an ape. His creed still a totem pole. When he first achieved the upright position he took a look at the stars... thought they were something to eat. When he couldn't reach them, he thought they were groceries belonging to a bigger creature... that's how Jehovah was born. -- E. K. HornbeckInherit the Wind
Being quite direct: so I guess you think that it's perfectly logical to believe that the universe in all of it's complexity suddenly came into existence, from absolutely nothing with absolutely not cause?
The process wasn't sudden at all, it has taken billions of years.
And the universe is 99.9999% random junk floating around with no order or plan, with only randomly distributed small pockets with some order, which is about what one would expect.
And its not said to come from nothing. Although we're not sure where it came from, some people believe the matter/energy always existed. The truth is, no one is certain at this point. But just because we don't know for sure how it started, that doesn't mean it is likely that a God did it. It just means that we don't know.
Thats one of the principle difference between the scientific community and the religious community. The religious community traditionally has answered "God did it" to ever question that we weren't sure of. The scientific community will say they don't know, but theres no evidence of a God doing it.
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Originally Posted by DanPrin
I'd hope that you are solid enough in what you believe that you could refrain from dodging my question by asking me a question. I'm sure I'm just rambling about nothing and that you will inform me on this issue.
I know you might find it very easy to not answer it but get upset at my ignorance, even though I haven't even shared my perspective or what I believe. That's beside the point.
Imagine a blank space/nothing. How could a being come from that? I don't know. I would think he was there before that blank space or always has been, or he in fact put the blank space we are thinking of there in the first place.
I don't think the theist can prove God exist even if they could prove one existed Billions of years ago to create the world. After all, he could be dead by now.
I mean, what if the universe had a creator, but he died during the big bang?
We were nothing more than a meth lab that caught fire, and now we're left all alone.
Everything that is testable within our experience came into existence not from or by "nothing" but by something else that previously existed.
Since you weren't around when the universe was created, applying common sense macro-level understanding of the world to what was certainly nothing of the sort seems a bit backwards.
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Nothing that is physical existed before the universe came into existence because the universe, itself, is physical (or has physical properties). We can agree on that.
"Nothing that is physical existed before my car came into existence because my car, itself, is physical (or has physical properties)." By your logic we both now agree that nothing physical existed before 2004.
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God is not physical otherwise he could not have created everything that is physical. It would be like saying, "This pen sitting here on my desk, by it's own physical properties, caused itself to be physical and also caused its very existence." That is just ridiculous.
So is your idea here that because one physical object (a pen) has a cause outside itself, all of them must. Unfortunately, that's not a valid conclusion. It also goes against the fact that we know of events which have no cause, cases where effects come before causes, and instances where stuff literally comes out of nothing. Even the physical universe is a lot more strange than you'd think it was just by looking at everyday macro events at normal levels of energy. When you add in quantum and high-energy effects, it's nearly unrecognizable, so trying to apply common sense doesn't work.
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God, if he did indeed created the universe, he could not have began to exist when the universe began to exist (hence my previous example of the pen). So before the universe existed there wasn't anything, right? That would include time, right? So, at the beginning of the universe space was created, along with matter, and also time. It could (possibly) be agreed that anything created or made takes up, space, matter, and time, right?
Anything physical in this universe. You're going around in circles, though. By your assertion, God isn't part of the physical universe. It doesn't make any sense to use concepts which only apply in the physical universe as if they also apply to whatever supernatural world god hangs out in.
Either your god is physical and follows the laws of the universe, which means like every other physical object it couldn't exist until after the universe did. Or he's outside of those laws and trying to apply concepts like cause, effect, space and time to it makes no sense because we don't know anything at all about stuff outside the universe, by definition. Switching back and forth as needed for the whims of your story is just chasing your tail.
The process wasn't sudden at all, it has taken billions of years.
And the universe is 99.9999% random junk floating around with no order or plan, with only randomly distributed small pockets with some order, which is about what one would expect.
I don't really know where you get that percentage from (maybe just based on the fact that the universe is GINORMOUS, I don't know). What we have observed outside of this earth is extremely complex, not life, but complex nonetheless. All the more amazing that this one galaxy contains this tiny tiny tiny planet among billions, and it has the extreme fine tuning to allow for life? That's incredible.
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Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill
And its not said to come from nothing. Although we're not sure where it came from, some people believe the matter/energy always existed. The truth is, no one is certain at this point. But just because we don't know for sure how it started, that doesn't mean it is likely that a God did it. It just means that we don't know.
Thats one of the principle difference between the scientific community and the religious community. The religious community traditionally has answered "God did it" to ever question that we weren't sure of. The scientific community will say they don't know, but theres no evidence of a God doing it.
But you would have to agree that if science doesn't have a solid answer (meaning that we still aren't sure) to this question and others then some intelligent creator would have caused the universe to exist? Why is that such a horrible thought, even when scientists aren't sure of the universe's derivation? I really do want to know why, with all honesty?
It's like a man who finds a cell phone at the bottom of a pool and instead of assuming that someone with a particular intelligence made it (from preexisting matter), he first: assumes it came from absolutely nothing and then posits an ever-changing theory to explain why someone with intelligence did not create it, all the while never knowing for sure that his theory is correct (because there is continually new [and more] evidence rebuts it.)
So, we're not sure where it (the universe) came from, though many have theories, but we know that there is no possible way that any intelligent creator caused the universe to exist. Which one seems more likely?
I hope I don't sound sarcastic, I may have a tendency of sounding so...at least my wife thinks so. So, I apologize. In no way am I trying to disrespect you or your intelligence.
But you would have to agree that if science doesn't have a solid answer (meaning that we still aren't sure) to this question and others then some intelligent creator would have caused the universe to exist? Why is that such a horrible thought, even when scientists aren't sure of the universe's derivation? I really do want to know why, with all honesty?
So you are saying that if we don't know how something happened the only possible explanation is that 'god did it'?
So you are saying that if we don't know how something happened the only possible explanation is that 'god did it'?
I find it amusing that you seem to be negating the very fact that the discussion was not about "something happenning" (or, as I assume you mean, anything that happens), but about the derivation of the universe. Scienctists freely admit that we don't know for sure how the universe came into existence from nothing.
Perhaps you were just looking at the wrong thing, just the above statements are quite forward.
Scienctists freely admit that we don't know for sure how the universe came into existence from nothing.
...and you are saying that because of that there can only one possible explanation...'god did it' or a 'creator did it'. That is in correct. There could be dozens of causes that we don't yet know about. Supernatural entities are a possibility, they are not a foregone conclusion.
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