Thinking there might not be a god (translation, Mormon, Revelation)
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Are you serious, a collission course with the galaxy andromeda and defecation are your exampes of how creation is flawed?
Wow.
In case you don't know, defecation is the process by which waste is eliminated from the body due to the energy sources we need to take in (do you wish we were ucelar powered or something? j/k). The bowel system is a exquisitely designed system in which there are many loops of bowel where many many chemicals interact with the food we eat in order to extract those building blocks of life, meanwhile keeping the bacteria which helps digest our food from entering our blood stream but allowing the building blocks to enter our blood stream. At the same time, it constricts and contracts to keep the waste products from becoming stuck in our system and allow us to defecate. Things like enzymes and hormones which control this process are far from simple, and the multi-layered bowel is as efficient a system as you will find in a man-made structure whose purpose it is to extract anything fomr anything.
Tell me it isn't beautifully designed.
I know how the excretory system works - that's not what I'm asking for. You gave me the scientific answer. I'm asking you to give me a way in which I can test the "designedness" of something like the excretory system with a method other than "Wow, it's just so beautiful and complicated that God must have done it."
This is what I referred to in my first response on here as regards an argument from incredulity. You have not shown one shred of evidence to suggest that a God has done anything at all except postulate that you cannot conceive how it could have been done otherwise. It's a lot like saying the hole is just precisely deep enough to allow the puddle to form therefore God did it.
If you can lay down for me a rigorous set of methodologies that can be based on observational realities as well as scientific empiricism to prove the "designedness" of something than I'm all on board. Until then, you are just making hypothetical metaphysical assumptions to compliment religious fantasies.
By the standards that you set, I hereby resort to the Flying Spaghetti Monster as the Intelligent Designer. His existence has been proven, of course, by the increasing number of natural disasters in the world as being inversely proportional to the decreasing number of pirates. I have a chart showing this representation if you care to see it. It's my opinion that he reached down from the heavens with his noodly appendage some 6000 years ago and created everthing that we see as well as give the appearance of things being millions of years old. Sometimes he alters scientific experiments and labwork to make it look otherwise just so he can throw us for a loop.
One last question I'd like to ask:
How's "Mortarita-ville"? Do they still call it that? It's going on two years since I was last there.
The First BOOK of the new testament was written about 70-80 A.D. jesus supossedly died around 30 A. D so I was wrong how?
The thing you fail to mention too is that the Gospels are referenced in the Book of Acts as well as the Epistles of the Apostle Paul. The Epistles were written well in advance of the actual Gospels in and about the 40-50 AD timeframe. Even though the actual documents can be traced back to about 70-80 AD, the Gospels were spoken knowledge about jesus and his time on earth much like most of the written history of the world was spoken knowledge before it was written.
The fact that certain truths are spoken about in the Letter of Paul means we can reliably take these as fact that Jesus spoke them and they are the foundation for the Church (since it is written about so early after His death and resurrection and the spoken knowledge then is written in the Gospels).
If you would like more information about how the Gospels and the Book we call the Bible are some of the most historically accurate documents we have in history, just ask and I will be glad to give you some more info.
I know how the excretory system works - that's not what I'm asking for. You gave me the scientific answer. I'm asking you to give me a way in which I can test the "designedness" of something like the excretory system with a method other than "Wow, it's just so beautiful and complicated that God must have done it."
This is what I referred to in my first response on here as regards an argument from incredulity. You have not shown one shred of evidence to suggest that a God has done anything at all except postulate that you cannot conceive how it could have been done otherwise. It's a lot like saying the hole is just precisely deep enough to allow the puddle to form therefore God did it.
If you can lay down for me a rigorous set of methodologies that can be based on observational realities as well as scientific empiricism to prove the "designedness" of something than I'm all on board. Until then, you are just making hypothetical metaphysical assumptions to compliment religious fantasies.
By the standards that you set, I hereby resort to the Flying Spaghetti Monster as the Intelligent Designer. His existence has been proven, of course, by the increasing number of natural disasters in the world as being inversely proportional to the decreasing number of pirates. I have a chart showing this representation if you care to see it. It's my opinion that he reached down from the heavens with his noodly appendage some 6000 years ago and created everthing that we see as well as give the appearance of things being millions of years old. Sometimes he alters scientific experiments and labwork to make it look otherwise just so he can throw us for a loop.
One last question I'd like to ask:
How's "Mortarita-ville"? Do they still call it that? It's going on two years since I was last there.
It is now called joint base balad..kind of funny, but the mortars have really come to a halt (almost but not entirely) since the surge has taken its effect. it really did work and violence is down big time!
Onto the meat of the discussion...you are asking me to give you objective proof that God exists and I can't, you know that. The God I love and believe in doesn't give many objective signs of his existence anymore, although he did in the days of the Old Testament. Instead, the Father has granted us the presence of the Holy Spirit, part of the trinity that is charged with the task of giving us the enlightenment with which we can see God and the creation as God's work. It says in Romans 1:18-20
" For the Wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shown it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his external power and Godhead; so they are without excuse:"
It goes on in verses 21-22: "because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither they were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools."
This is what my Book tells us about people who choose to ignore the greatness of his creation and the abundance of clues in this day about his existence...there is not excuse, only people who think they are wise but are not wise to the fact that a good God does exist.
You ask for proof, I can't give it other than to look at your heart and realize that you are not made from monkeys, or fish, or bacteria, you are mad ein God's image.
It is now called joint base balad..kind of funny, but the mortars have really come to a halt (almost but not entirely) since the surge has taken its effect. it really did work and violence is down big time!
Onto the meat of the discussion...you are asking me to give you objective proof that God exists and I can't, you know that. The God I love and believe in doesn't give many objective signs of his existence anymore, although he did in the days of the Old Testament. Instead, the Father has granted us the presence of the Holy Spirit, part of the trinity that is charged with the task of giving us the enlightenment with which we can see God and the creation as God's work. It says in Romans 1:18-20
" For the Wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shown it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his external power and Godhead; so they are without excuse:"
It goes on in verses 21-22: "because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither they were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools."
This is what my Book tells us about people who choose to ignore the greatness of his creation and the abundance of clues in this day about his existence...there is not excuse, only people who think they are wise but are not wise to the fact that a good God does exist.
You ask for proof, I can't give it other than to look at your heart and realize that you are not made from monkeys, or fish, or bacteria, you are mad ein God's image.
Joint Base Balad, huh? Who'd have thought... Glad to hear it's gotten better. I guess I was over there in the thick of most of it. We were pummeled pretty bad but it always seemed like the guys leaving were always the ones talking about how things had died down as compared to when they first got there.
Back to what you said. I do realize that you cannot give me objective proof of God's evidence and that's exactly why I retorted the way I did and also the reason why I said in my first response to the OP (I think it was that post) that the standards of evidence are often presumptive of the person and what they're looking for.
All I'm trying to point out are the philosophical implications that just because one really wants to believe in something (I would love to believe in Superstring theory; heterotic M-theory; Mutliverse Theory, etc...) because they seem to explain so much does not make them true. I am willing enough to say "I don't know" how something came about or why something works a certain way but that does not ultimately warrant "God did it" in my mind. There are things that science doesn't know. What happened "before" the Big Bang? What was the first life and how did it come about? Are there such things as gravitons? What's at the center of a black hole? These are all questions that science does not have an answer for and many more. Yet, to fill in the gaps with "God did it" simply halts scientific progression. Futhermore, to make a broad generalization and just say "God did science" - well, that's great - but now I want you to prove it to me.
For me, I have to go by evidence. There is certainly a difference between making hypothetical and metaphysical assumptions (such as the implications of a Level III Multiverse) and conferring them as the truth. To me, when I hear people say that they believe in the Bible as the word of God they are doing so on faith (which is fine if it works for you) and not evidence in the fashion that I am talking about. I think one of the things that would really bother me about "believing" in God is that I would know deep down that it would be on faith and faith alone and I'd always doubt and I'd always question it and I don't suspect I could ever say I REALLY believed. I often wonder how many people who profess to believe actually do feel this way? Sometimes I wonder if they recite the Nicene Creed every day, pray at breakfast, lunch, and dinner, go to church on Sunday, reinforce themselves with others of like mind all just to alleviate that primordial knowledge that they're taking it on faith and the possibility exists that they could be wrong.
I think that the fundamental flaw in a lot of people's emotional attachment to religion is that they refuse to postulate on whether or not they are wrong or right. I suppose that for many this is instilled from birth. Do not question religion, do not question the Bible, do not question the priest, do not question the preacher, and above all do not question God. I used to ask my grandmother what would happen if I didn't believe and she would just respond "You'd better believe!" Well, that was underwhelming but I can see how the train of thought is begotten from a very young age and it's not like I think people do it on purpose. It's just a cultural zeitgeist that transcends generations.
Ultimately, what I am looking for is the evidence that I asked for and that which you agree does not currently exist. That sort of puts us at an impasse or a crossroads to agree to disagree. Nevertheless, I would like to point out that even if we were able to prove the "designedness" of something we would still have to take on faith that the deity one worships is the right one. For all we know... It could have been Thor's Mighty Hammer that caused the Big Bang. I do hope you understand my position a little better?
GCSTroop, I do understand where you are coming from, and that is why I asked if you have ever really looked into the science of things, because I have found so many unanswered questions in science just as you may have found so many unanswered questions about religion.
You asked me to prove to you God exists, I said I couldn't give you hard facts that God exists other than the concreteness of the Bible and the creation he made for us. However, I have many stories about how God has made an impact on my life, answered prayers and directed my life in a way that is really beyond coincidence, but to the non-believer it is jsut that, pure coincidence or luck as some would call it.
Faith is something that enriches my life, it does not detract from it as you are afraid it would do for you. I get the feeling you were let down in a significant manner as a child (either mom or dad left or died) and have issues with trust and to compensate you feel like you can do it all on your own knowledge of what is going on in the world. Just a feeling, it may be wrong, but few people are so adamant about needing objective proof in their lives about somethings existence, and so unwilling to trust in something.
How do you know love exists. how do you know someone loves you, before they tell you so. Do you feel it? Do you see it? Of course you can see the outward expressions of someone's love for you, but I say you can see the outward expressions of God's love for you too, if you would only look and listen (honestly listen, not just go through the motions).
I put my faith in the Lord, I do not go through the rituals you described in order to maintain my faith. It is through rich dialogue with others and my personal walk with the Lord that I maintain my faith. To me, God is a very real and very alive diety who lives in me and through me. I can not express anything objective about it, sorry. I can only tell you how I feel and how you could feel, it is a choice, and by the looks of it you are lost in the world of deceit. Science is not the answer, there are mysteries of the world that science will never explain. However, there will be a time (don't know how soon) when all knees will bow and every tongue will confess that God is the almighty and you will be judged according to the path you chose in life. Simple, but simple belief is not the answer, as i mentioned before, the devil believes in the existence of God, the devil just choses to ignore God's supremacy. To counter this lack of supremacy, the devil has to trick us humans. The devil is full of lies, and one lie he loves to trick people with is that people can do it all themselves.
I gott ago to bed, it may only be dinner time in MS, but it is past 2Am here in JBB, gotta run. I will pray for you tonight though (yikes, really this AM), that your eyes may be opened to see the Light.
The thing you fail to mention too is that the Gospels are referenced in the Book of Acts as well as the Epistles of the Apostle Paul. The Epistles were written well in advance of the actual Gospels in and about the 40-50 AD timeframe. Even though the actual documents can be traced back to about 70-80 AD, the Gospels were spoken knowledge about jesus and his time on earth much like most of the written history of the world was spoken knowledge before it was written.
The fact that certain truths are spoken about in the Letter of Paul means we can reliably take these as fact that Jesus spoke them and they are the foundation for the Church (since it is written about so early after His death and resurrection and the spoken knowledge then is written in the Gospels).
If you would like more information about how the Gospels and the Book we call the Bible are some of the most historically accurate documents we have in history, just ask and I will be glad to give you some more info.
Okay now where talking, Paul is the only proof of Jesus from 30A.D. to approx 70-80 A.D. Now Paul says Jesus came to him in a vision….. The lord told Paul to spread the word of Jesus Christ, and he did it through offering salvation leaving behind a group of followers forming the early Christian church... He wrote over 80,000 words about Christianity and is the only proof of Christianity in the decade after he died. BUT this is what is interesting; if Jesus was a HUMAN who had recently lived nobody told Paul. Paul never heard of Mary, Joseph, and Bethlehem, John the Baptist, he never even quotes anything Jesus said , none of the miracles, he doesn’t know anything about the entrance to Jerusalem, Trial or tribunals, Paunches Pilot, Jesus ministry, Paul doesn’t know any of what we call the story of Jesus. Paul mentions three things that Jesus supposedly did, died, resurrected, and arose, but it didn’t take place on earth. Paul’s Christ Jesus did all this in a mythical realm. Paul dose not believe Jesus was even a human being. He wasn’t even aware of the idea. And this is your link between 30 A.D. and 70 A.D. The appearance of the first gospel account. So Jesus lived, every one forgot and then they remembered.
Don’t even get me started on the stories written by the gospels that where thrown out because they where to unrealistic.
Okay now where talking, Paul is the only proof of Jesus from 30A.D. to approx 70-80 A.D. Now Paul says Jesus came to him in a vision….. The lord told Paul to spread the word of Jesus Christ, and he did it through offering salvation leaving behind a group of followers forming the early Christian church... He wrote over 80,000 words about Christianity and is the only proof of Christianity in the decade after he died. BUT this is what is interesting; if Jesus was a HUMAN who had recently lived nobody told Paul. Paul never heard of Mary, Joseph, and Bethlehem, John the Baptist, he never even quotes anything Jesus said , none of the miracles, he doesn’t know anything about the entrance to Jerusalem, Trial or tribunals, Paunches Pilot, Jesus ministry, Paul doesn’t know any of what we call the story of Jesus. Paul mentions three things that Jesus supposedly did, died, resurrected, and arose, but it didn’t take place on earth. Paul’s Christ Jesus did all this in a mythical realm. Paul dose not believe Jesus was even a human being. He wasn’t even aware of the idea. And this is your link between 30 A.D. and 70 A.D. The appearance of the first gospel account. So Jesus lived, every one forgot and then they remembered.
GCSTroop, I do understand where you are coming from, and that is why I asked if you have ever really looked into the science of things, because I have found so many unanswered questions in science just as you may have found so many unanswered questions about religion.
You asked me to prove to you God exists, I said I couldn't give you hard facts that God exists other than the concreteness of the Bible and the creation he made for us. However, I have many stories about how God has made an impact on my life, answered prayers and directed my life in a way that is really beyond coincidence, but to the non-believer it is jsut that, pure coincidence or luck as some would call it.
Faith is something that enriches my life, it does not detract from it as you are afraid it would do for you. I get the feeling you were let down in a significant manner as a child (either mom or dad left or died) and have issues with trust and to compensate you feel like you can do it all on your own knowledge of what is going on in the world. Just a feeling, it may be wrong, but few people are so adamant about needing objective proof in their lives about somethings existence, and so unwilling to trust in something.
How do you know love exists. how do you know someone loves you, before they tell you so. Do you feel it? Do you see it? Of course you can see the outward expressions of someone's love for you, but I say you can see the outward expressions of God's love for you too, if you would only look and listen (honestly listen, not just go through the motions).
I put my faith in the Lord, I do not go through the rituals you described in order to maintain my faith. It is through rich dialogue with others and my personal walk with the Lord that I maintain my faith. To me, God is a very real and very alive diety who lives in me and through me. I can not express anything objective about it, sorry. I can only tell you how I feel and how you could feel, it is a choice, and by the looks of it you are lost in the world of deceit. Science is not the answer, there are mysteries of the world that science will never explain. However, there will be a time (don't know how soon) when all knees will bow and every tongue will confess that God is the almighty and you will be judged according to the path you chose in life. Simple, but simple belief is not the answer, as i mentioned before, the devil believes in the existence of God, the devil just choses to ignore God's supremacy. To counter this lack of supremacy, the devil has to trick us humans. The devil is full of lies, and one lie he loves to trick people with is that people can do it all themselves.
I gott ago to bed, it may only be dinner time in MS, but it is past 2Am here in JBB, gotta run. I will pray for you tonight though (yikes, really this AM), that your eyes may be opened to see the Light.
I totally agree with your next to last paragraph,science is not the way but God is the only way and that He lives within me and that is the only evidence I need..
Well it is stated that Paul met the risen (Jesus) on the road to Damascus, or it was a dream from his own subconscious, or things that he claimed were a revelation from God, were basically to allow him to change a messianic Jewish sect to appeal to gentiles, and inturn increase his followers and power. So believe what you want but I am not making anything up.
Your so called proof dose not know about or even mention anything about the story of Jesus and he is the so called basis or link of modern Christianity. How could someone alive 10 years after Jesus died not know about any of the key parts of this mans life. The story of Paul is not any different than people believing in scientology. L.R. Hubert had a vision and he believes we came from alien spirits, People follow him, and Mormons follow that because of Joseph Smiths so called visions. Well I guess you get my point.
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Isn't it a fact that Paul never actually met Jesus?
