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Perhaps the experience of being taken advantage of by the self-interest of others, and being blind to it is perhaps the lesson for all.
In all frankness MysticPHd, it was my own blindness to this self-interest, out of my love that I had held for these others, that caused so much grief in my own life.
If one ties a love (misplaced or otherwise) with the belief that one needs to have those relationships then one is doomed to servitude to those relationships. -- Think about abusive alcoholics and their poor wives who are beaten within an inch of their lives, and sometimes die unless they leave them. But they usually go back to these abusive relationships because they "love the man". Women in these relationships become victims of these kinds of relationships because they do not believe that it is possible to find someone else who will love them. They rationalize that it is better to have a "bad love", than no love at all, despite that the "bad love" could potentially kill them. Sad but true.
Clearly the love offered by Gary Olsen is not a path to freedom or even loving since it is based off of creating the illusion of a need, (that one needs a master), and in this case that Gary Olsen exercises that power over a would be spiritual student. It is by many accounts most assuredly not loving or anything close to it. It is at that point about control and power, this happens the minute that one formally takes a 2nd initiation, and the cash flow to Gary is pretty much assured since one has bought into the kool-aid that he is selling.
The majority of those on the MP still believe that Gary cares for them, they have been hoodwinked by their own need to have emotional happiness and then believing that the MP and Gary Olsen can give that to them is their error in thinking and their blindness to Gary's self-interest.
Many do not realize that when one is exercising power in a relationship that is not about giving the other person in that relationship a choice (meaning completely respecting them and fully allowing them their dignity) then it becomes a power play. And when it is a power play, it is definitely not about love, it is about the other getting compliance to their demands and what it is that they want.
The MP members choose not to see that Gary is making money off of their vulnerability, (their need for love) via this particular relationship falsely believing that it provides security and certainty since they buy into the emotional fulfillment in the moment of communing with their master that provides them the quick fix. Therefore also falsely believing that everything else he says is true, which anyone who has recently read that bird flu example knows that that is not true.
So this path leads all who buy into it away from sanity, clarity and self-responsibility.
Once I saw for myself that it was the alleged need for this relationship, and others like it, and challenging that supposed need, that I uncovered that this whole MP thing was about having a relationship that was for Gary Olsen's benefit and certainly not about my enlightenment, self or god realization. (the last 2 most assuredly about ego elevation), that I dumped the whole bloody thing.
Gary Olsen and the MP, give love a bad name, and they attempt to steal what is truly God's and pervert it for their own ends. Again one of those sad but true examples of life where predators prey upon the weak and the vulnerable to feed themselves at the expense of those who they say they love. Hence why Gary Olsen is a narcissistic liar, and anyone who defends it is attempting to rationalize their own choice. (seen too many chelas attempt to do that), instead of at least attempting to see the truth.
You must have contemplated on your past lives and know where you are now in relation to past actions, and what to do next?
Hi,
The response of mine you quoted was simply my response to someone else's post, an attack of sorts, about 'their' views of my being a Chela and the karmic destiny/pain that would cause me.
So I don't think I can really help you explore this subject
Personally I've not done much of that at all, contemplating on my past lives, what my past life actions were (positive or negative) etc. What ever Karmic account 'balance' I have - it just Is - I guess is how I feel about. No regrets, feeling bad, things like that. I don't find MP making me feel unacceptable, disempowered - those things you said about controlling religions - at least not in my experience.
::Sigh:: I repeat . . . No true master would ever charge for enlightenment . . . nor would they engage in future predictions. You cannot experience the extraordinary joy, acceptance and love of oneness and ever want to "sell" access to it or misrepresent it.
:Sigh:: I repeat - we have absolutely no basis, other then our own beliefs, for the models for money-masters-teaching-organizational structure
Meaning you have your view and I have mine and I see no basis for either being more valid? Do you? Perhaps something else has happen in the past year that validates your position as anything other then subjective?
As I've mentioned in the past I find the reliance on Julien P. Johnson in this case to be unsatisfactory, certainly not the final word or gold standard that many seem to.
As previously mentioned, I personally find the money aspects of MP to be quite acceptable. They seem proper and even honorable to me. Very reasonable and up front.
>>Those that are still on the MP, and who represent or defend it, have already decided to give up informed decision making, since they selected a master to begin with.
Can you back up that statement?
My reality is that my decision making is at least as informed as yours, if not more. In fact your only 'proof' that I am a brain dead, unthinking, puppet, robot is that I don't agree with you.
This is just one example of the hypocrisy of this thread, presenting itself as full of facts - yet in truth based primarily on subjective, personal beliefs.
>>'Selected a master to begin with'
So this person believes that Guru paths, or paths where one 'submits' - result in robots.
No some times, not in some cases, but in all cases.
This is how they understand Gurus/student relationship - this is how their mind reacts.
Bully for them.
But hardly a fact or truth. Nor is it all specific to MP.
What I find absolutely perverse about this is that these people claim THEY are the ones making INFORMED decisions - as if they are the ones going through a factual, scientific, full 360 degree analysis of things.
"I make informed decisions, if you don't agree with me the only possible truth is that you are a robot."
The "robot" term isn't about agreeing or disagreeing at all, Allan. In my view, it's about things like MP-speak and some of it's repetitive programmed phrases and circular logic. For example, stuff like "everything is as it should be", "none are so blind as those who refuse to see", "life is shabda, shabda is life", etc. Gag me.
It's also about being blind to that which is right in front of you, because you have been programmed to dismiss it as "of the mind", or "reactive". There are different writing styles among you, but a lot of times you all end up sounding the same with nonsensical catch-all phrases and convenient cop-outs.
It's also about a lack of caring and empathy for outsiders ("manamukhs") and the elitist thinking that binds you all together so strongly in your shared fantasy world.
You will not see it, Allan, because you are in it. If someone posted a picture of Gary burning a cross in a Ku Klux Klan outfit, you wouldn't believe it and you'd all parrot each other saying "it's photoshopped."
If we produced video of Gary torturing little kittens, there would be another explanation like "it was the kittens' karma", or "he was just teaching us something very deep that you non-chelas couldn't possibly understand."
Note: the KKK and kittens were just exaggerated illustrations to make a point. Gary Olsen is NOT a member of the KKK and has NOT tortured kittens to my knowledge.
It really does seem like anything that points to Gary being an idiot and a crook will be excused by his chelas. It's that kind of thing that makes you look like zombies, automatons, etc.
You've been directed not to question the "master". Never mind that Gary thinks Bush is a visionary, never mind that he thinks supersized humans lived with the dinosaurs, never mind his fear mongering, never mind that he acts like a jerk. Garji, Garji, Garji...
Defend away on your belief system, it still doesn't make the MP right, true, necessary or relevant to life. Just because you bought in doesn't mean the rest of us have or will.
Or do you think that your approach that you are using right now influences anyone outside of your attempting to make yourself right in your own eyes?
In fact your defense in the manner that I see, which is clearly anger manifesting itself, the tone says that, shows to me at least that you have yet to seek clarity of your situation with regards to the MP.
Defense of your beliefs is yet another veiled form of anger, I should know I use it when I deem it necessary, but that is a choice I make, you aren't there from what I can see. Your posts are tainted with an unbridled anger, yet you do not know its source.
My anger in the past, many times came from not seeing where boundaries were being violated, once I saw where and how the boundaries were being violated, I could then make an informed decision and respond effectively.
It is well known to get out of sadness, one seeks contact, to get out of fear one moves towards courage, and to get out of anger one seeks clarity. In all 3 of these cases one is seeking to get to responsibility, the ability to respond.
As of yet I do not see you there, that is being able to respond, (I am quite sure that you don't like my seeing that, let alone saying it - but that is not the issue is it?)
You, Alan, as far as I can tell are stuck in your own overly adamant defense, and your need to defend it here of all places where it is well known that there are many who despise the MP informs me well enough.
It tells me that you do not seek responsibility, you continue your need to be angry, to be justified, to be right. Which is nothing but all ego.
So continue as you have, but I see a poor damaged ego not seeing what it needs to do, other than vent his frustrations and defend something that has no defense, the track record of that idiot Gary Olsen is too long on this thread to be anything other than what it is.
Take some responsibility Alan, how about accountability, do something other than this lame attempt at spewing anger. Otherwise I am going to report you to the moderator for going off topic and being irrelevant to the discussion thread.
Now you have a choice, either be effective and responsible or not, but there will be a consequence.
The "robot" term isn't about agreeing or disagreeing at all, Allan. In my view, it's about things like MP-speak
Perhaps this is your view of the term. Others apparently use it differently.
The specific use that I quoted said nothing less then I/chelas do not think - we do no longer make Informed Decisions
There are other examples - though for time sake focusing on this one example is enough.
Is there any 'proof' that I do not 'think' or make Informed Decisions? All that is offered is that I have chosen a guru lead path.
Yet this view of me/chelas as non thinking, robots, that have given up something practiced by the rest of you - is presented as 'fact' and the basis for all kinds of other criticisms.
What I foind here is that at the same time I am personally experiencing more thought, more observations of my thoughts, more probing into where my thoughts are coming from, sponsored by - at the same time that is going on there you folks claiming as fact that I am doing the exact opposite.
You use words like 'programmed' - yet there is not one scintilla of proof that I have been programmed. Is there? And again my personal experience is far from that, the increase of awareness of what is going on in this head is only begun, yet is already incredibly increased over any past part of my life.
And again, people seem to have no compulsion to throwing words like programmed around - as if they are fact.
And your basic proof for these facts seems to boil down to the simple fact that we do not agree with you - does it not.
Not agreeing with you - means I am excusing away behaviors - I excuse away behaviors because I don't think - I don't think because I am programmed - its the same slippery slope of an argument, over and over again and all predicated with the assumption that your view is right - so obviously right, so black and white and final that it is a fundamental fact - and bears no alternative or differing opinion.
Perhaps you don't see these obvious contradictory behaviors because you are in it - as you say. Being blinded to ones own issues is quite common among us humans - it is not a behavior of MP chelas only.
"life is shabda, shabda is life"
That is a pretty profound teaching, it impacted me greatly - its is a fundamental reasons why I don't understand how people blame MP for pulling them out of their life, away from their family, work, etc.
Yet as profound or insightful and useful as I find it - you see it was circular logic and pablum.
The fact that we have two different views of the same thing is something we could explore - but more to the point of this thread - your reaction to me having a different view, of me coming from a different perspective, is to label me as robot, programmed, not critical/informed thinking.
It is this kind of closed mindedness, this kind of black and white and unacceptance, demeaning of others that you don't understand that makes me see this thread in a very different light then you.
You tout this as something new and great that prior MP or in fact any Guru students didn't have - all hail the internet as it opens up the doors of information, facts, etc - and there is truth in that view, lots of it. But there there is also truth that the facts of this thread, the behavior, the yes Ill say it bigoted behavior - those all point to a darker aspect of this information - the ability of one group to distort, dis-inform, bias, to stifle conversations and information other then their own, to in effect block religious freedom. That has happen here as well.
Defend away on your belief system, it still doesn't make the MP right, true, necessary or relevant to life. Just because you bought in doesn't mean the rest of us have or will.
Still_Kicking, to me your post comes across as your personal opinion of me, guessing at my motivations etc. It seems like little more then pop psychology and IMHO amounts to a sidetrack in the conversation.
Let me ask you this, what is in your post that simply couldn't be turned around on you, or Violet or anyone that posts in response to another's comments? In your view who here isn't defending their position, ego etc? And why?
I get the distinct feeling that anyone that agrees with you is a hero stating facts, and those that don't agree with you, or point out flaws, or challenge you - those folks are desperately defending their position and are tormented souls because in their hearts they know your right. Something like that.
In any case I personally find discussing my mental status, my motivations, my character to be the type of discussion that would be more likely characterized as 'off topic'
Are you suggesting that dis-agreeing with you is off topic? You seem to, you clearly position your view as absolute truth, above reproach - it is as you say there is no possible defense, no possible alternative view, - in short you are saying that anyone that does not agree with you should shut up because there is no possible valid position other then your own.
And of course, your post had nothing to do with responding to my comments to you. It seems sidestepping the point is a tactic of yours - **** the dude might have a point - let me attack his character instead.
Lets keep to the subject - can you offer any proof that I am unable of making Informed Decisions? Can you explain what an Informed Decision is and how do you know that all Guru/Chelas don't do 'that'?
Last edited by allan1015; 09-15-2010 at 12:53 PM..
:Sigh:: I repeat - we have absolutely no basis, other then our own beliefs, for the models for money-masters-teaching-organizational structure
Meaning you have your view and I have mine and I see no basis for either being more valid? Do you? Perhaps something else has happen in the past year that validates your position as anything other then subjective?
There is nothing about the right brain meditative experience that is NOT subjectively experienced. However, I have experienced the "end state" of meditation (the one "masters" are supposed to have reached) . . . and it is a life-changing experience. I cannot imagine anyone having achieved it who would do ANY of the things your "master" does, want ANY of the things your "master" wants or require his followers to do ANY of what your "master" requires of you. This tells me he is a complete fraud.
BUT . . . God can draw straight lines even with "crooked sticks" . . so if you feel that this spiritualist pimp is aiding your spiritual development and quest for truth . . . so be it.
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Well Allan there is no responsability is there?
