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Dismissed...The reason no bonifide archeologist no longer is interested in them is because they were proven to be a hoax many years ago...Now creation science claims they are valid artifacts....I don't think so. What the heck does this have to do with Dr. Noah?
Your questions are valid, your post is eloquent. I don't begrudge a seekers quest, whether it is of the natural non believers or the supernatural believers position, which brings the point to Scripture and God are in the Supernatural realm, and not defined or proven by the natural scientific methods of discovery.
To some believers, God is able to transcend all physical contraints and structures.
Example: Jesus multiplied matter (fishes and loaves). Defied Gravity, Overcame death, caused fields of grain to ripen off season, healed those that could not naturally be healed, and transport himself through walls and thin air without anyother mode of transportation.
So when Scientific Physical laws as we understand them to be in our everyday lives, are ignored by the creator of all things, and those who wield His power, it doesn't really cause a believer any pause or dismay.
Therefore arguments formed under the constraints of Natural become cumbersome when we are dealing in Super natural realms.
godspeed,
freedom
This I can whole-heartedly accept. You win on this one. I agree. Thx for being straightforward with your answer. Perhaps an upcoming post on logic that I've been arranging in my mind will help explain my evolving (sorry...) position.
Last edited by rifleman; 12-10-2008 at 11:41 PM..
Reason: typos
Well could you point me to an Evolutionest site that has interviewed the 12 men my link speaks about? You know very well, that believers in Evolution have not take the time since the 1950s to consider the figurines of El Toro mountain.
I find all the other accounts far more reliable, and far more interested in the truth.
To the red quote above, I simply respond that Evolutionists and active scientists in general don't bother to argue any more because there's nothing for them to refute or prove. The scientific community plus a significant percentage of the non-scientific community, and even a good part of the Christian community, fully believe in the law of evolution.
I am going to take the time to check out your link, as sanspeur has done, but is there only the one situation you're hanging your whole hat on? We've found, world-wide, a large number of cave drawings, some dating back... well I know, you won't believe those numbers anyhow so I won't go there. But there's no credible cave drawings of dinos. Sorry.
I also wonder why we never find, at the same geological levels, man and saurian fossils together. And I'll also ask, why doesn't the bible mention Cro-Magnon men or mitochondrial Eve-type of people? Why no cave drawings of them? Were our high-brow "artiste" fellows too embarrassed by those stoopy lo-brows who lived next door in the "cheap caves"?
The vast array of absolute proof, the reams of evidence and the simple elegance of how it has and still works have allowed for the continued growth of scientific discovery. No serious and honest facts-based scientist doubts evolution as the source of species. Not an implausible though entertaining Ark theory. It's only the likes of us idle playboys, seeking to be entertained, who bother to argue it. We do it because we know we're right, you because you know you can't be wrong.
Please read freedom's thoughts above. He has it right as to the basis for belief. You do not. It's not about facts or interpretation of same. You choose, philosophically, to "believe", regardless of the growing evidence. That's your perogative. But facts is facts, baby, and they prove that evolution happened and that Arks crammed with dinosaurs did not. We don't need this fable for our personal spiritual needs; you do. Absent an Ark, I can still be happy. Absent an Ark, you'll have a big problem.
Re: the blue quote: I've always said: "to each his own twisted distorted beliefs". Which ever, yours or mine. However, one of my strong beliefs and observations is that religion is certainly not interested in the truth. Otherwise why did they murder people who pointed out that the Earth was round and that it circled the sun? Or is that wrong in your eyes also?
PS: you also didn't answer my questions about poop disposal from tens of thousands of vegan saurian species (oh yes, times two per each...), plus 50,000 (also X two per each) of other excreting animals. That's a lotta dung! Or, why didn't your god just warp the time-space continuum instead of generating this rather problematic means of ensuring survival? I thought they were simple enough inquiries. Humor an old scientist.
Last edited by rifleman; 12-11-2008 at 12:28 AM..
Reason: typos
To the red quote above, I simply respond that Evolutionists and active scientists in general don't bother to argue any more because there's nothing for them to refute or prove. The scientific community plus a significant percentage of the non-scientific community, and even a good part of the Christian community, fully believe in the law of evolution.
I am going to take the time to check out your link, as sanspeur has done, but is there only the one situation you're hanging your whole hat on? We've found, world-wide, a large number of cave drawings, some dating back... well I know, you won't believe those numbers anyhow so I won't go there. But there's no credible cave drawings of dinos. Sorry.
I also wonder why we never find, at the same geological levels, man and saurian fossils together. And I'll also ask, why doesn't the bible mention Cro-Magnon men or mitochondrial Eve-type of people? Why no cave drawings of them? Were our high-brow "artiste" fellows too embarrassed by those stoopy lo-brows who lived next door in the "cheap caves"?
The vast array of absolute proof, the reams of evidence and the simple elegance of how it has and still works have allowed for the continued growth of scientific discovery. No serious and honest facts-based scientist doubts evolution as the source of species. Not an implausible though entertaining Ark theory. It's only the likes of us idle playboys, seeking to be entertained, who bother to argue it. We do it because we know we're right, you because you know you can't be wrong.
Please read freedom's thoughts above. He has it right as to the basis for belief. You do not. It's not about facts or interpretation of same. You choose, philosophically, to "believe", regardless of the growing evidence. That's your perogative. But facts is facts, baby, and they prove that evolution happened and that Arks crammed with dinosaurs did not. We don't need this fable for our personal spiritual needs; you do. Absent an Ark, I can still be happy. Absent an Ark, you'll have a big problem.
Re: the blue quote: I've always said: "to each his own twisted distorted beliefs". Which ever, yours or mine. However, one of my strong beliefs and observations is that religion is certainly not interested in the truth. Otherwise why did they murder people who pointed out that the Earth was round and that it circled the sun? Or is that wrong in your eyes also?
PS: you also didn't answer my questions about poop disposal from tens of thousands of vegan saurian species (oh yes, times two per each...), plus 50,000 (also X two per each) of other excreting animals. That's a lotta dung! Or, why didn't your god just warp the time-space continuum instead of generating this rather problematic means of ensuring survival? I thought they were simple enough inquiries. Humor an old scientist.
You have stated that I have chossen philosophically to believe what I do, and ignored the facts. What a total denial of the facts on your part. Believers in Evolution for (YEARS) have been in denial of numerous facts that have been presented to them. You appear to be in their camp. Human remains have been found incased in coal. Human artifacts have been found incased in coal, and stone. Human drawings and figurines have from our ancient past revealed dinosaurs pictures, and images. And such items have been time tested, and proven to be from our ancient past. Inca burial stones has revealed numerous dinosaur pictures. And it would appear it is science that is not intrested in that truth, because when this evidence is presented to them. (IT IS IGNORED). The Bible is not a Book of science, yet it is a Book of truth. And the Scriptures from time to time speak of things that touches science. And the Bible speaks of dinosaurs, and science ignores that, because it does not fit with their Theory. And when they find ancient art work that depicts dinosaurs, they ignore that to, because it does not fit with their theory of Evolution. Science does a great job of ignoring facts that do not agree with their Theory. So please, don't tell me my arguement is only philosophically based. The Bible stated the earth was like a circle, because the Hebrew did not have a word for ball, the Bible also said the earth floats on nothing. What others did in the past, because they had misconceptions about the Bible, has little to do with what the Bible actually stated. And your right, facts are facts baby. And Evolution has few facts that would prove that it is based in anything close to reality. The fossil record is bankrupt when it comes to Evolution. Things appear as they once were, or as they are today. We see no obvious transional fossils. What growing facts are you talking about that supports Evolution? Mans assumptions on Evolution are not facts, just misguided beliefs. Facts are what we see in our historical record, and those are the facts science should consider if they really want to know the truth. And the historical record agrees with the Bible, not todays so called science of Evolution.
You have stated that I have chosen philosophically to believe what I do, and ignored the facts. What a total denial of the facts on your part. Believers in Evolution for (YEARS) have been in denial of numerous facts that have been presented to them. You appear to be in their camp.
(No, no honest scientist denies any new evidence. [Not, though, a tired rehash of old, already discreditted riff-raff]. It will, however, be automatically subject to peer scrutiny, and there has been, over time, a further vast body of evidence paralleling the supportive evidence for evolution that notes the fraudulent presentations of supposed fossil remains, the oddball re-interpretations of true evidence by those not actually accredited {you can't just read and refute an article and then claim to be a Christian Scientist, now can you? Esp. when your techniques turn out to be shoddy or fraudulent. You expect us to just accept "new evidence" absent any review. To question is, apparently, to "disrespect" in your tightly reined-in world)
Human remains have been found incased in coal. Human artifacts have been found incased in coal, and stone.
(Actually, they were probably encased in simple tar sands, and then mis-interpreted. Tar sands of course have been around forever, and even exist today in L.A. (La Brea) for instance. But again, please show me the links to this stuff. I'd love to check out the evidence, contrary to your accusations.)
Human drawings and figurines have from our ancient past revealed dinosaurs pictures, and images. And such items have been time tested, and proven to be from our ancient past. Inca burial stones has revealed numerous dinosaur pictures.
(Hypothetically, Campbell34, [please, for just a moment, humor me and think hypothetically... I promise it won't hurt!] ... if someone checked this out and found even the slightest possibility of a fraudulent interpretation or of outright "seeding" of ceramic or bone fragments,
would you 1) dismiss that finding out of hand,
or 2) be upset that perhaps someone had tried put one over on you?
and then 3) want to uncover the real truth?
Put another way, would you rather have a truth in front of you, even if it ran against your long-held beliefs, or would you rather try to hold on to a proven untruth to support your personal belief system?
And it would appear it is science that is not interested in that truth, because when this evidence is presented to them. (IT IS IGNORED).
(Wrong again. So very very wrong. Our disagreement, complete with our supporting arguments, of anything controversial that Christians might posit, doesn't mean we've ignored a truth. If anything, there are always a few sort-of closet-argumentative ego-driven scientists who would only too happily put down the many hypotheses that science creates on a daily basis. Their problem is that darned peer review process which keeps all of science honest. You'll have to trust me; there are a lot of scientists who would love to get their hands on some good irrefutable evidence of biblical stores. There are, after all, a lot of scientists who were raised as Christians. Careful when you lump us all together)
The Bible is not a Book of science, yet it is a Book of truth. And the Scriptures from time to time speak of things that touches science. And the Bible speaks of dinosaurs, and science ignores that, because it does not fit with their Theory.
(Where, specifically. I really do want to look up the irrefutable mention, specifically, of dinos in the bible. Not a sort of wide-interpretation, Nostradamus style, that is just conveniently used in support of co-existance. You know, where it says "..and Abraham spoke of the huge, 60-hand high long-tailed lizard carnivores in his garden which had just eaten all of his sheep in one happy gulp", or "and they were in awe of the herd of huge big-bellied long-tailed tree-gnoshing vegan lizards which had forever inhabited their valley", or "Noah had a devil of a time with the thousands of unruly carnivorous or vegan lizards on his boat", versus "And Abraham spoke of the large cold beast which charged on through his garden one night, molesting his sheep." Which could have been his neighbor who loved beastiality...).
And when they find ancient art work that depicts dinosaurs, they ignore that to, because it does not fit with their theory of Evolution. Science does a great job of ignoring facts that do not agree with their Theory.
(Well, what can I say. Your's is conjectural, argumentative and insulting. I've been there, in the room so to speak, with science. You so obviously have not. I live it; you hate it. We actually LOVE to improve and evolve, [if you can stand the word], any existing theory if it proves out. In fact, the arguments that discredit the so-called clay dino figurines proving co-existance, by accredited investigators, is dismissed out of hand by Christians. And you say we ignore findings?
Our own brutal self-evaluations only tend to improve our image with the non-scientific public precisely because it so obviously leads to better understandings, better theories, "laws" and truths. It vastly improves the survivability of our species [which Christiantiy has had an opposite effect on, what with wars and all...], and it allows for the ongoing development of our overall understanding of the mysterious universe we see all around us. To stop such investigative thoughts would be to return to The Dark Ages, pre-Renaissance, Spanish Inquisition, etc. You feel religion is open-minded? Really?)
So please, don't tell me my arguement is only philosophically based.
(Well, it is!)
The Bible stated the earth was like a circle, because the Hebrew did not have a word for ball, the Bible also said the earth floats on nothing. What others did in the past, because they had misconceptions about the Bible, has little to do with what the Bible actually stated.
(And there's no misconceptions about the bible by Christians anymore? Like Ark fables or instant speciation?)
And your right, facts are facts baby.
(Thanks! I knew you'd see the light!)
And Evolution has few facts that would prove that it is based in anything close to reality. The fossil record is bankrupt when it comes to Evolution.
Only to you. We've put out far more evidence "for" than xtians have put out "agin", yet you still completely believe there's not any possibility that evolution (small "e", BTW) is the way. Big "E" makes it "the Law".
Things appear as they once were, or as they are today. We see no obvious transional fossils.
(You must have missed that photo-post a few weeks ago that CLEARLY showed transitional fossils. Who did that? Anyone? Anyone?)
What growing facts are you talking about that supports Evolution?
(Read the literature, not just your bible. As I've suggested, read and learn, my good fellow. Or not. Perhaps you've heard that old saying "There are none so blind as those who will not look!")
Mans assumptions on Evolution are not facts, just misguided beliefs. Facts are what we see in our historical record, and those are the facts science should consider if they really want to know the truth.
(Nope. Sorry. First, you directly contradict yourself. You have stated in the past that our [science's] so-called "facts" are only our misguided interpretations. Now you say "facts" are what "we" (meaning Christians) see in our historical record. Which is it? How convenient a lop-sided interpretation!
For your enlightenment, our "facts" are simply our stated conclusions after considerable debate, peer review, re-testing, re-examining and evolving into a wide-based, interlocking hypothesis, with mutual support from other disciplines and hypotheses. And unlike the biblical interpretation, it has amazed and enlightened the intelligent secular world that it actually does all begin to fit together. As all good "theories" start out, en route to becoming Laws in the vernacular of the average. Again, unlike the biblical fables.)
And the historical record agrees with the Bible, not todays so called science of Evolution.
Yep! That is what we call it. Actually, I've grown tired of that meaningless old "saw" that xtians cling to so helplessly, that "Evolution is only a Theory!". Please, don't try to use simple semantics against us. It shows a distinct lack of creativity, depth of knowledge or intellectual honesty. You're capable of so much better, Campbell!
BTW, one of the keys to any scientist's inner drive and personality is the need to come to our own conclusions, not just to parrot others' interpretations, even if it means possible ex-communication from "the group". Membership in a group of like thinkers is nice, but not essential, to me. You perhaps?
And a further "BTW", in the spirit of the season (happy pagan celebration time again!) please check out my new thread, under "Religion & Philosophy", about Chickens and Ferraris. It's certainly applicable here, and I make an honest attempt, I feel, at reconciliation of our vastly opposite views.
P&L2A rflmn™
Last edited by rifleman; 12-11-2008 at 12:15 PM..
Reason: typos
Yep! That is what we call it. Actually, I've grown tired of that meaningless old "saw" that xtians cling to so helplessly, that "Evolution is only a Theory!". Please, don't try to use simple semantics against us. It shows a distinct lack of creativity, depth of knowledge or intellectual honesty. You're capable of so much better, Campbell!
BTW, one of the keys to any scientist's inner drive and personality is the need to come to our own conclusions, not just to parrot others' interpretations, even if it means possible ex-communication from "the group". Membership in a group of like thinkers is nice, but not essential, to me. You perhaps?
And a further "BTW", in the spirit of the season (happy pagan celebration time again!) please check out my new thread, under "Religion & Philosophy", about Chickens and Ferraris. It's certainly applicable here, and I make an honest attempt, I feel, at reconciliation of our vastly opposite views.
P&L2A rflmnâ„¢
you are getting fooled rifleman, Campbell isn't trying to argue evolution, his mind has been made up on the matter. What's happening is that by bashing evolution, the topic moves on to evolution as opposed to Dr N's myth. Thus the subject changes and it stops him from having to defend all those ridiculous claims regarding the ark. The tactic seems to be ~When stumped, move on, change the subject until you reach a full circle~
Just remember that this thread is called "Noah's Ark How'd that happen?", not "Evolution-xxxxxxxxx"
you are getting fooled rifleman, Campbell isn't trying to argue evolution, his mind has been made up on the matter. What's happening is that by bashing evolution, the topic moves on to evolution as opposed to Dr N's myth. Thus the subject changes and it stops him from having to defend all those ridiculous claims regarding the ark. The tactic seems to be ~When stumped, move on, change the subject until you reach a full circle~
Just remember that this thread is called "Noah's Ark How'd that happen?", not "Evolution-xxxxxxxxx"
Appreciate the heads-up, coos. Yep... I've noted this tactic in use before by this poster as well as NIKK and a few others. The ol' deflection ploy, but it does, in a way, reflect on evolution in that we're expected to believe two sorta conflicting Xtian concepts at the same time, and coincidentally to toss out the obvious evidence against evolution.
Those two conflicting ideas? 1) Intelligent Design is supposed to explain that God invented all species one afternoon. A simple godly nose-wiggle, "poof", & voila! Nothing fantastic about it!
2) Alternately, Noah saved them all from total destruction, each and every species extant at that time, by herding them lovingly onto the Ark, and THAT's where they all came from.
At least some biblical scholars, including the dread Catholic Church, have begun to accept the obvious and suggest that evolution was just the method God invented to create species suitable for each eco-niche. Maybe so, but at least we can conclude that evolution obviously works.
Well, back to the chickens! Thx again, coos! Always good to have someone cover your back against the logic assassins....
Last edited by rifleman; 12-11-2008 at 09:21 PM..
Reason: typos
Yep! That is what we call it. Actually, I've grown tired of that meaningless old "saw" that xtians cling to so helplessly, that "Evolution is only a Theory!". Please, don't try to use simple semantics against us. It shows a distinct lack of creativity, depth of knowledge or intellectual honesty. You're capable of so much better, Campbell!
BTW, one of the keys to any scientist's inner drive and personality is the need to come to our own conclusions, not just to parrot others' interpretations, even if it means possible ex-communication from "the group". Membership in a group of like thinkers is nice, but not essential, to me. You perhaps?
And a further "BTW", in the spirit of the season (happy pagan celebration time again!) please check out my new thread, under "Religion & Philosophy", about Chickens and Ferraris. It's certainly applicable here, and I make an honest attempt, I feel, at reconciliation of our vastly opposite views.
P&L2A rflmnâ„¢
No honest scientest would deny evidence? What I see most scientest do is just (IGNORE) the evidence. In recent times, they discovered carved on an ancient Cambodian Temple wall, a Stegosaurus. Where's your scientest
now? They are were they always are, and that is, no where near this site.
Human remains in tarsand, please. Here again you have a perfect record of ignoring the facts. Human remains and human artifacts for years have been found not only hundreds of feet below the surface, but in some cases, miles below the surface.
And when it comes to the figurines of ElToro Mountain, believers in Evolution have dismissed them, but they have done this not based on evidence. They have done this because the figurines do not agree with their Theory of Evolution. And the figurines have been time tested numerous times, and every time they give consistant dates that do not agree with the Theory of Evolution, so they continue to reject them.
And I have no doubt that there could be artwork that would be fraudulent, but there is no way that all of it is. And that is the problem science has with this artwork. And that is why they will continue to ignore it. And they will continue to ignore it, even when science shows us that it's represntations of dinosaurs are true.
you are getting fooled rifleman, Campbell isn't trying to argue evolution, his mind has been made up on the matter. What's happening is that by bashing evolution, the topic moves on to evolution as opposed to Dr N's myth. Thus the subject changes and it stops him from having to defend all those ridiculous claims regarding the ark. The tactic seems to be ~When stumped, move on, change the subject until you reach a full circle~
Just remember that this thread is called "Noah's Ark How'd that happen?", not "Evolution-xxxxxxxxx"
I have not been stumped, I have presented evidence that has not been refuted. The Ark is on the North Slope of Mt. Ararat. There is eyewitiness accounts, and photographic evidence that agrees that there is a man- made object at the 15,500 foot altitude. And this claim is made by one photo analyzer, who does not even believe in Noah's Ark. According to the Bible, Noah's Ark setteled on the mountains of Ararat, and eyewitiness accounts stated that they saw the Ark up there, and it was broken in two. The arial photos show a man-made object high up on the mountain that appers to of been once joined together, but now is broken in two. These photos agree with the eyewitiness accounts from years before.
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science
Thank you sir.
The HMS* "Deflection"
