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I guess that means Americans who observe traditional flag protocol are idolators, too. (Not allowing a flag to be dipped, flown below another national flag, touch the ground, etc.) And isn't an old flag supposed to be buried?
Indeed, it is a form of idolatry...not that I have anything against idolatry myself, as GOD is not a jealous god and couldn't care less, but still, if one's religion is against idolary, it should be against idolatry PERIOD.
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And being Jewish myself, all I can say regarding your observations is that you still need to do a little more studying. Or at least try to go a little deeper than the surface.
If a religion is truly iconalstic, then it should be completely iconatastic. I mean, take Islam...against bowing down to idols, so now, they just bow down to the empty little buiding that once held the idols and now, only houses a meteorite! How is that not idolatry?
Or how about the wailing wall in Jerusalem? I mean, is there a god in there, or is it just a slab of millenium old granite? If the latter, then why afford it special worship? Was it not man made?
I do not have anything against idolatry, anyway, as long as people are honest about it. I have, once upon a time, sacrificed more then a few bottles of ale before a statue of Cernunnos and Brigid. It is just the dishonesty that I can't stand.
I think there is a good argument that many Christians have elevated the bible to the status of an Idol. This is based on their refusal to acknowledge that men created the bible, and accordingly they attribute magical powers to the words contained within it. For example, no matter how far fetched a story in the bible may be, they say it MUST be true - because it's in the bible.
Sorry, I don't attribute "magical powers" to the bible. Just because I may believe the stories written it in, does not mean I believe it's magic.
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Further, Christians describe God's word as part of God. Consider this verse:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word (was) God.
That to me is not saying Jesus is the Bible.
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Given that the bible is "the Word" to many Christians, it's clear the Bible is much more than just a regular book to that religion. I think it's telling that Christians who use the King James Version of the bible will often pray and talk about religion using old English conventions and verbiage, (such as using lots of "thee's" and "thy's.") As if God talks in old English just because the KJV was translated in that day and age.
I do agree with you on this. I think it's ridiculous when one uses that type of English.
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Given the fact that the bible is believed to be of divine origin, has somewhat magical properties, and is said to be an actual part of their lord, I don't think we can say it's just another book. I think it is a religious representation of their God that is revered, and believed to convey spiritual power. That is about as good of a definition of an Idol as one will find.
No, it's not a "given". You are partially mistaken. Yes, I believe it to be of divine origin. No, I do not believe it has magical powers. No, I do not believe it to be Jesus.
Do I think it's "just another book"? No, because I do believe it to be of divine origin. Would it bother me if someone spat upon it like VP said? Yes, but not because of the actual book, but like I said previously, because they would be spitting on my beliefs.
I do not have anything against idolatry, anyway, as long as people are honest about it. I have, once upon a time, sacrificed more then a few bottles of ale before a statue of Cernunnos and Brigid. It is just the dishonesty that I can't stand.
Ok, here is honesty for you. I do not worship the bible. Just because someone disagrees with your theory does not make them dishonest.
Also, keep in mind that we Gnostics have nothing against idolatry, because it is not against GOD but only against the jealous god/satan of the OT and not the GOD of Christ.
If you wish to have a conversation, stop being arrogant and condescending, dismissing another's spiritual path as inherently "wrong" or beneath you. Be humble. To answer your question, the God within all of us. Kdbrich, you are approaching God from a very simple perspective on this issue. You think we all need a book to read and rules to follow to connect to God.
Many of us have moved beyond that external relationship and developed a deeply internal one. It is not one religion or one path. It is the freedom granted to each individual to pursue her highest path. For some, that might mean committing "sin" until that individual works through such desires and moves beyond them.
But aborting one's ability to work through such lower desires creates horrible situations by oppressing such freedom. By establishing a bunch of rules one must simply follow that individual freedom is being aborted.
Sorry, I don't attribute "magical powers" to the bible. Just because I may believe the stories written it in, does not mean I believe it's magic.
That to me is not saying Jesus is the Bible.
I do agree with you on this. I think it's ridiculous when one uses that type of English.
No, it's not a "given". You are partially mistaken. Yes, I believe it to be of divine origin. No, I do not believe it has magical powers. No, I do not believe it to be Jesus.
Do I think it's "just another book"? No, because I do believe it to be of divine origin. Would it bother me if someone spat upon it like VP said? Yes, but not because of the actual book, but like I said previously, because they would be spitting on my beliefs.
I don't know, even under your description it sounds like the bible is an idol. Granted that the definition of an "idol" is vague. But you admit that you believe it is not a normal book, and you believe it has divine origins. You say you don't believe it has magical powers, but you do believe the words contained on the pages were created through a magical process, at the very least.
Do you dare question the words in the bible, or do you submit to it as the ultimate authority on all questions? I think you probably follow the words in the bible over other source you may have for determine what is right or wrong.
It sounds like the Bible plays at least as big of role in your life as the Golden Calf did back in the day. Or an image of Buddha does to some other religions.
I don't know, even under your description it sounds like the bible is an idol. Granted that the definition of an "idol" is vague. But you admit that you believe it is not a normal book, and you believe it has divine origins. You say you don't believe it has magical powers, but you do believe the words contained on the pages were created through a magical process, at the very least.
Do you dare question the words in the bible, or do you submit to it as the ultimate authority on all questions? I think you probably follow the words in the bible over other source you may have for determine what is right or wrong.
It sounds like the Bible plays at least as big of role in your life as the Golden Calf did back in the day. Or an image of Buddha does to some other religions.
Well, I said my peace. You can take it as you want, which isn't surprising that you only hear what you want anyway. If you or anyone else wants to think I idolize the bible, all power to them. Makes me no never mind. Now excuse me, I need to go bow down to it for a while.
PS...my children play a big role in my life too, guess I better worship them as well.
Well I like ALL of my books, including my bible, and I dare anyone to burn, spit or pee on any of them.. They are an investment, and a pleasure to read over and over, and in these hard times I probably could not replace them..
These books, are not idols and I do not worship any of them, bible included.. I lost the whole lower shelf in the bookcase of books, including a couple of bibles and commentaries in a flood a couple weeks ago..But I did make sure to grab the photo albums on my way to the higher level I have burned books before including a few worn out bibles and other religious books and felt no guilt or shame..If my personal bible is somehow destroyed it is very easily and cheaply replaced by Walmart..I do not patronize the Christian bookstores, because they are very expensive..
victorianpunk certainly raises an interesting question. To answer it one has to understand what idolatry means. This in itself might be problematic as it may mean differently to different groups.
In it purest sense an idol will mean something that has the power of godhood, being given the status of of being able to create, destroy, protect, heal, etc, without having any of those qualities. But this is not the only thing it can mean. It can also mean something in a less materialistic sense, i.e believing in something other than God's laws.
In the days when most of the world was practicing paganism idolatry took the form of statues of various names. When taken into the context of the above description however it is clear that almost anything can be ascribed as an idol.
I'll expand on my first, more material description of an idol. If I believe that a security gate will protect me and keep me safe in my house, I am in fact giving the gate the power which it does not have. Some might argue that is indeed what the gate does. The problem comes in where we unfortunately put our faith in a physical structure and thus forget that God keeps us safe by means of providing the gate. The same with medicine where we believe that the medicine make us healthy. It is God that makes us healthy by giving the medicine the ability to heal us.
Books can become idols if people give it the same qualities of godhood that it does not have, though to be honest I'll never be able to spit or urinate in any book, it just a senseless act in my eyes.
The other type of idolatry, the less materialistic form, is following something contrary to God's laws, which ultimately is the belief in your own ego. If you follow wrongful acts, such as stealing or having an affair, you are infact satisfying your own ego, instilling momentarily while performing the act a status of godhood onto yourself. The ego is superceding the laws by applying it own set of rules to satisfy itself.
Nicene/Orthodox Christians, Muslims, and Jews all claim they are against Idolatry, and yet all are Idolators. Why? Becuase they all idolatrize their sacred books. I don't mean the message of the books, but rather the books them selves! Are not the Torah, the Koran, and the Bible nothing but bitts of paper with cardboard binding and some ink? If so, then why have such reverence for them?
I hear so many "born again Christians" call Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans and even Catholics "idolators" because they worship before images. Well, so are the fundies, after all, they would get offended if I burned a Bible in front of them. Same with Jews...don't they pass the Sefer Torah around during their survices? Isn't that just an idol of paper ( a form of wood, HELLO!) that is the object of worship, no different from bowing before a statue?
And don't get me started on the Muslim! I mean, they had riots because some interrogator at Gitmo urinated on the Koran. I mean, aren't Muslims suppose to be hard core against worshipping a idol? If so, then why care if a idol, like the Koran, gets pee on it?
If you really do not believe in bowing down or worshipping and idol, prove it by burning your Holy book, after all, god is not in the book, now is he? I thought it was just a book about god, and not god himself...
$26.00 dollars! That ain't cheap. Sorry, but I have cheaper things to use for kindling then the scriptures. But would I burn them, urinate on them, and vomit on them etc. if they were free? Absolutely. They are just words on paper, and that paper is no more worthy of worship then a pile of bricks or the computer monitor in front of me. GOD is not in there, but in the knowledge contained in there.
Also, keep in mind that we Gnostics have nothing against idolatry, because it is not against GOD but only against the jealous god/satan of the OT and not the GOD of Christ.
If they actually set the Book in front of them, and prayed to IT, then you might have a point. But who wants to destroy ANY book? Only idiots. I don't care if it's a Salman Rushdie tome or a book about evolution. As you said, there's knowledge in the book, written down so that one does not have to memorize it.
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.. They are an investment, and a pleasure to read over and over, and in these hard times I probably could not replace them..
I have burned books before including a few worn out bibles and other religious books and felt no guilt or shame..If my personal bible is somehow destroyed it is very easily and cheaply replaced by Walmart..I do not patronize the Christian bookstores, because they are very expensive..
That ain't cheap. Sorry, but I have cheaper things to use for kindling then the scriptures. But would I burn them, urinate on them, and vomit on them etc. if they were free? Absolutely. They are just words on paper, and that paper is no more worthy of worship then a pile of bricks or the computer monitor in front of me. GOD is not in there, but in the knowledge contained in there. 
