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"Your points?" I didn't say anything about Mao or Stalin, and yet you go off on a long, long lecture about something I never even mentioned.
I didn't mention Mao or Stalin either, clearly that's what you think of when you see an atheist
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Originally Posted by victorianpunk
I did mention, which you, again, ignored, The Cult of Reason, a group which, for no reason other then Atheism, instituted mass murder in the name of creating a "Godless, logical society", watch this video, starting at 4:30, and then get back to me:
YouTube - The Trouble with Atheism (6 of 7)
I did not ignore the "cult of reason". You are ignoring the fact that atheism didn't inspire them to do this. Unlike the religious atrocities we see around the world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk
The Cult of Reason was a bloody Atheistic regime, Reason taken to an extreme and, like anything taken to far, Atheism and Reason can become oppressive and horrable: Cult of Reason - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Atheism itself isn't a principle, cause, philosophy, or belief system which people fight, die, or kill for. Being killed by an atheist is no more being killed in the name of atheism than being killed by a tall person is being killed in the name of tallness." These people where clearly anti-christian.. (Not surprising considering how oppressive Christianity was back then)
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk
As for the 20th century, while the same Atheist fundamentalist apologists always mention Stalin and Mao...they never mention Enver Hoxha.
Hoxha was a Marxism-Leninism. Marxism-Leninism is a communistideological stream that emerged as the mainstream tendency among the Communist parties in the 1920s as it was adopted as the ideological foundation of the Communist International during Stalin's era.
His belief where as dogmatic as Christianity.
Enver Hoxha was the dictator of Albania under communism, but his communism was a different kind of Communism. His was "theoretical Communism" and as such, it was all about reason, logic, and the sciences. Albania was the only country EVER to completely ban all religion. Even North Korea and the Soviet Union at least played lip-service to freedom of religion. But in Albania:
Yes, because he was an atheist, that means everyone who is an atheist is willing to take rights away from everyone
You logic as flawed, as saying everyone who wears glasses (because he did) is willing to take rights away from people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk
Richard Dawkins might as well of written those words, but no, they came from the Albanian Constitution under Enver Hoxha. So clearly these two examples show that Atheism can be just as deadly, when taken to the extreme, as any religion.
I know you believe that. But as I said before. "Atheism itself isn't a principle, cause, philosophy, or belief system which people fight, die, or kill for. Being killed by an atheist is no more being killed in the name of atheism than being killed by a tall person is being killed in the name of tallness."
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk
The bottom line is this: No fundie will ever say this, but I will: ATHEISM IS A COMPLETELY LOGICALL, PERFECTLY OKAY CHOICE AND PEOPLE SHOULD BE FREE TO BE ATHEISTS IF IT WORKS FOR THEM. I do not believe that my religion is the right one for everyone and if people are happy being Atheist, that's okay. It is the fanaticism, the Atheistic Fundamentalism that I am against, and not Atheism in and of it's self.
Atheism is only logical as long as there is no evidence for a god. So far it has stayed that way.
Atheistic Fundamentalism... I see.. You do realized that every fundamentalist is atheistic
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk
The fact that I defend Atheism and make it clear that I am only attacking the radical element there in, while you call my, and everyone else's beliefs that differ from yours "stupid" and "a cop-out" etc is proof positive that YOU are the fanatic here, not I.
Oh.. yes so I can not defend the truth or I am radical.
You mean lack of belief .
You opposing view bs reeks of ID propaganda. I can call those who deny facts, evidence and reason logic stupid. Only religion demands that a don't.
Characteristics of Dogma
True believers.
Irrational beliefs.
Powerful point of focus.
Heretics.
Genocidal Stupidity. (Not always)
Communist Dogma
True believers - The Party.
Irrational beliefs - collectivization, lysenkoism.
Powerful point of focus - Lenin, Stalin, the State.
Heretics - Trotskyism the Great Purges of the Bolshevik Party.
Genocidal Stupidity - Collectivization in the Ukraine.
Christian Dogma
True believers - The catholics.
Irrational beliefs - Virgin Birth, Heaven, Hell, Trinity.
Powerful point of focus - Jehovah, Jesus, Holy Spirit.
Heretics - Gnosticism, Protestants, Mormons, Jehovahs, Witnesses.
Genocidal Stupidity - Ban on Contraception, AIDS teaching in Africa, Regular European Pogroms, Witch Burnings and the Crusades.
I didn't mention Mao or Stalin either, clearly that's what you think of when you see an atheist
No, you posted a link saying that what Stalin and Mao did were not in the name of Atheism.
Quote:
I did not ignore the "cult of reason". You are ignoring the fact that atheism didn't inspire them to do this. Unlike the religious atrocities we see around the world.
Okay, well, for that matter, the Crusades were not inspired by religion, because there was money and territory to be gained as well, and the Inquisition was not inspired by religion, because it was a good was to do away with political rivals, and the Salem Witch Trials were not inspired by religion, because there was allot of land to be gained after those "witches" property was handed over to the state, and 9/11 wasn't inspired by religion, because US policy of imperialism stirred up a hornets nests...
The same arguments could be used about anything. I am sorry but, you call yourself "The Cult of Reason" and go around burning churches and declaring that you want a Godless society, that sounds just as much as Atheism inspiring bloodshed as the Crusades sound like Christianity inspiring blood shed.
Your denial of the facts just proves POINT 3
Quote:
Hoxha was a Marxism-Leninism. Marxism-Leninism is a communistideological stream that emerged as the mainstream tendency among the Communist parties in the 1920s as it was adopted as the ideological foundation of the Communist International during Stalin's era.
His belief where as dogmatic as Christianity.
Yes, because he was an atheist, that means everyone who is an atheist is willing to take rights away from everyone
You logic as flawed, as saying everyone who wears glasses (because he did) is willing to take rights away from people.
I know you believe that. But as I said before. "Atheism itself isn't a principle, cause, philosophy, or belief system which people fight, die, or kill for. Being killed by an atheist is no more being killed in the name of atheism than being killed by a tall person is being killed in the name of tallness."
As I said, the same need for Reason, and logic that inspire people like Dawkins and Hitchens can be taken to an extreme and inspire people like Hoxha and the Cult of Reason. The evidence is clear.
Quote:
Atheism is only logical as long as there is no evidence for a god. So far it has stayed that way.
Atheistic Fundamentalism... I see.. You do realized that every fundamentalist is atheistic
That makes absolutely no sense what so ever.
Quote:
Oh.. yes so I can not defend the truth or I am radical.
You mean lack of belief .
You opposing view bs reeks of ID propaganda. I can call those who deny facts, evidence and reason logic stupid. Only religion demands that a don't.
So...you claim to "defend the TRUTH" and not a oppinion (which is all either of us have, an oppinion) As I said in POINT 4 , like all fanatics, Atheist extremists are so dead certain that they have the only absolute truth it's scary. I do not have the absolute truth, YOU do not have absolute truth. My willingness to admit that all I have is an oppinion proves that I am not the fanatic here...you unwillingness to do so shows that you are just as bad as a member of the Moral Majority.
Please keep it up, because all you are doing is confirming everything I have been saying all along.
No, you posted a link saying that what Stalin and Mao did were not in the name of Atheism.
I did not say anything about Mao and Stalin. I'm pretty sure my link didn't either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk
Okay, well, for that matter, the Crusades were not inspired by religion, because there was money and territory to be gained as well, and the Inquisition was not inspired by religion, because it was a good was to do away with political rivals, and the Salem Witch Trials were not inspired by religion, because there was allot of land to be gained after those "witches" property was handed over to the state, and 9/11 wasn't inspired by religion, because US policy of imperialism stirred up a hornets nests...
The same arguments could be used about anything. I am sorry but, you call yourself "The Cult of Reason" and go around burning churches and declaring that you want a Godless society, that sounds just as much as Atheism inspiring bloodshed as the Crusades sound like Christianity inspiring blood shed.
That was their choice. Atheism is the non belief in deities. How would that inspire them to getup and kill people? Where does it say that killing people in "non belief in deities" is right?
Let me guess you need a better example. Someone who loves cars uses a car to kill someone, inspired by the love of cars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk
Your denial of the facts just proves POINT 3
You assumptions that I deny facts prove your ignorance and willingness to ignore what I am saying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk
As I said, the same need for Reason, and logic that inspire people like Dawkins and Hitchens can be taken to an extreme and inspire people like Hoxha and the Cult of Reason. The evidence is clear.
Their reason on anything besides "the disbelief in deities" is their own.
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk
That makes absolutely no sense what so ever.
Zero evidence for gods, non belief in gods
Zero evidence for zeus, non belief in zeus.
Zero evidence for martian aliens, non belief in martian aliens..
I don't see how that doesn't make sense to a normal rational person.
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk
So...you claim to "defend the TRUTH" and not a oppinion (which is all either of us have, an oppinion) As I said in POINT 4 , like all fanatics, Atheist extremists are so dead certain that they have the only absolute truth it's scary. I do not have the absolute truth, YOU do not have absolute truth. My willingness to admit that all I have is an oppinion proves that I am not the fanatic here...you unwillingness to do so shows that you are just as bad as a member of the Moral Majority.
You like going around in circles. As I said before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex
I have yet to find a atheist, who couldn't tell me exactly what would change their view on atheism.
I have yet to find a single theist who could tell me what would change their view on theism.
Out of these two, only one follows a dogmatic pattern.
Clearly I have to spell it out for you.
Theist - Not willing to coincided anything that could change their belief.
Atheist - Willing to accept a god when empirical evidence is presented..
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk
Please keep it up, because all you are doing is confirming everything I have been saying all along.
Characteristics of Dogma
True believers.
Irrational beliefs.
Powerful point of focus.
Heretics.
Genocidal Stupidity. (Not always)
Communist Dogma
True believers - The Party.
Irrational beliefs - collectivization, lysenkoism.
Powerful point of focus - Lenin, Stalin, the State.
Heretics - Trotskyism the Great Purges of the Bolshevik Party.
Genocidal Stupidity - Collectivization in the Ukraine.
Christian Dogma
True believers - The catholics.
Irrational beliefs - Virgin Birth, Heaven, Hell, Trinity.
Powerful point of focus - Jehovah, Jesus, Holy Spirit.
Heretics - Gnosticism, Protestants, Mormons, Jehovahs, Witnesses.
Genocidal Stupidity - Ban on Contraception, AIDS teaching in Africa, Regular European Pogroms, Witch Burnings and the Crusades.
ATHEISTIC DOGMA
True Believers-The Cult of Reason
Irrational beliefs-The world popped up out of nowhere, science can answer all of lives questions.
Powerful point of Focus-science, reason, logic
Heretics-Agnostics, Scientific Pantheonist
Genocidal Stupidity-State Atheism, Jacobite rebelion,
ATHEISTIC DOGMA
True Believers-The Cult of Reason
Irrational beliefs-The world popped up out of nowhere, science can answer all of lives questions.
Powerful point of Focus-science, reason, logic
Heretics-Agnostics, Scientific Pantheonist
Genocidal Stupidity-State Atheism, Jacobite rebelion,
You are slow.
Name me one deity/ies believing group who is not atheistic to everyone else? EVERYONE is atheistic
You can put Atheistic in front of anything! Atheistic murder, atheistic Nazi, atheistic stupidity, atheistic god, atheistic religion. Why? Because they are atheistic towards some deity.
Your smear propaganda reeks of the discovery institute BS and ignorance.
Clearly, the names "Mao" and "Stalin" are mentioned.
Quote:
That was their choice. Atheism is the non belief in deities. How would that inspire them to getup and kill people? Where does it say that killing people in "non belief in deities" is right?
Let me guess you need a better example. Someone who loves cars uses a car to kill someone, inspired by the love of cars.
Atheism is the belief that there is no GOD or supernatural. It is a belief because no one can prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that there is no GOD or Supernatural and lile all beliefs, it can be horrable if it is taken to the extreme.
Quote:
You assumptions that I deny facts prove your ignorance and willingness to ignore what I am saying.
You deny the fact that the Cult of Reason was driven by a zeal to end all religions, i.e., a Atheist zeal.
Quote:
Zero evidence for gods, non belief in gods
Zero evidence for zeus, non belief in zeus.
Zero evidence for martian aliens, non belief in martian aliens..
I don't see how that doesn't make sense to a normal rational person.
So right there you are calling anyone who doesn't see the world the way you do as being "normal and rational"...isn't that a bit arrogant?
Quote:
Clearly I have to spell it out for you.
Theist - Not willing to coincided anything that could change their belief.
Atheist - Willing to accept a god when empirical evidence is presented..
I have met many theist who became Atheists. Ohh, and there has been some evidence that GOD exists, although, as many scientists admit, it is next to impossible to prove or disprove a GOD.
So, in other words, what you are saying is that you belief that everyone should base all their decisions on "empiricial evidence"? Who the heck are you to tell people how they should or should not make their decisions?
That opinion, the irrational belief in the absolute supremacy of the sciences without any hint of even the slightest tinge of being willing to entertain a view point held by others is dogmatic to say the least.
To hell with reason! Everyone should not be a slave to logic, but be a slave to their own bliss and, as long as it hurts no one in the process, believe what you will.
You are claiming that everyone should bass their views on your own belief in empirical evidence...I am saying that everyone should follow, not my belief system, but what ever one works best for them and makes them happiest...who sounds more like the intolerant fanatic here, me or you?
Name me one deity/ies believing group who is not atheistic to everyone else? EVERYONE is atheistic
Actually, those of us who have actually studied religion know that there exist things scalled "syncretism" and "Universalism". Syncretism is the belief that, essentially, you are worshipping the same GOD I am, but in a different way. Like how Muslims believe that Jews and Christians are "People of the Book" and also praise Allah. Universalism is the belief that all religions lead to the same general thing: Hinduism, the world's thrid largest religion, is Universalist, in that it believes that the deity is all-pervasive, and, therefore, a Sihk or a Wiccan is also worshipping the same, ULTIMATE source.
To say that all religions oppose all other religions is completely untrue, and anyone who has ever taken an entry level class in Comparitive Religion can tell you that.
Quote:
You can put Atheistic in front of anything! Atheistic murder, atheistic Nazi, atheistic stupidity, atheistic god, atheistic religion. Why? Because they are atheistic towards some deity.
No, as I said, many religions, including, ahem, Unitarian UNIVSALISTS belief that all religions are valid.
And anyway, as I have been saying, even if one believes that another is wrong, there should still be some respect towards that person and his or her beliefs. One does not have to agree with the tactics, no, and it is fine to be againsts, say, a fanatic Muslim, as long as they understand that it is the fanaticism that is the problem, and not the Islam.
Atheism is fine, are every other belief systems or lack there of: it is the fanaticism and it's manifestations that are the problem.
Quote:
Your smear propaganda reeks of the discovery institute BS and ignorance.
So, my belief that creationism is a Myth means I sound like a member of a Creationists organization? Okay...
How Many Were Killed by Communists in the Name of Atheism & Secularism? Stalin, Mao, Other Communists Killed Millions on Behalf of Atheism
Clearly, the names "Mao" and "Stalin" are mentioned.
Well it does say it. I didn't type it, its a automatic on these forums.
But you missed the entire point of the article.
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk
Atheism is the belief that there is no GOD or supernatural. It is a belief because no one can prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that there is no GOD or Supernatural and lile all beliefs, it can be horrable if it is taken to the extreme.
Atheism says nothing about the supernatural. I remain agnostic (Agnosticism falls under the definition of atheism) when it comes to the general sense of a deity. But when it comes to the abrahamic god, I believe they do not exist. This is more then just a belief. It is supported by a mountain of evidence disprove the fairy tales in the scriptures.
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk
You deny the fact that the Cult of Reason was driven by a zeal to end all religions, i.e., a Atheist zeal.
They where Atheist. They wanted to end a religion. But their beliefs is no more tied in with atheism as the kkk is with Christianity.
Many people dislike organize religion, a lot of them are religious themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk
So right there you are calling anyone who doesn't see the world the way you do as being "normal and rational"...isn't that a bit arrogant?
Anyone who can not use reason logic and physical evidence to back up their beliefs is not rational.
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk
I have met many theist who became Atheists. Ohh, and there has been some evidence that GOD exists, although, as many scientists admit, it is next to impossible to prove or disprove a GOD.
A god yes. How does that prove the dogmatic scriptures of religion? Even if we could prove there is a god, there would be no way in knowing what religion was right. The only logical conclusion is that they are all wrong, and take the stand that we do not know anything about this god. But that it exists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk
So, in other words, what you are saying is that you belief that everyone should base all their decisions on "empiricial evidence"? Who the heck are you to tell people how they should or should not make their decisions?
What other believe besides religious belief is ever taken seriously without any empirical evidence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk
That opinion, the irrational belief in the absolute supremacy of the sciences without any hint of even the slightest tinge of being willing to entertain a view point held by others is dogmatic to say the least.
Now you are making a strawman argument. I listen. But when people refuse to give me details, then I have to make assumptions. Eg. When someone says "God", I have to assume you are talking about the christian god. In this respect, I can disprove god.
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk
To hell with reason! Everyone should not be a slave to logic, but be a slave to their own bliss and, as long as it hurts no one in the process, believe what you will.
who are you to say you can't hurt people.. oh wait you are using logic
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk
You are claiming that everyone should bass their views on your own belief in empirical evidence...I am saying that everyone should follow, not my belief system, but what ever one works best for them and makes them happiest...who sounds more like the intolerant fanatic here, me or you?
Wow, if stealing cars, and raping women makes you happy then go for it... Just ignore all that empirical evidence that you are hurting people
Hey the belief if you have sex with 12 year olds, and you wont get aids makes some people feel good.. who cares what the empirical evidence has too say.
Hey I can eat what I want, I feel good, who cares what the empirical evidence has to say.
Don't give my kids the vaccine shots, it makes me feel good that I'm protecting them. Who cares what the empirical evidence has to say.
Lets throw that black guy in jail for this murder he probably did it, who cares what the empirical evidence has too say.
You sound like a ignorant fool, who thinks that blind faith could never lead you to walk your children (or someone else) off a mountain top (metaphorically speaking) We rely on emprical evidence to tell us the truth. I can not believe you are actually suggesting that people should stay willfully ignorant.
Actually, those of us who have actually studied religion know that there exist things scalled "syncretism" and "Universalism". Syncretism is the belief that, essentially, you are worshipping the same GOD I am, but in a different way. Like how Muslims believe that Jews and Christians are "People of the Book" and also praise Allah. Universalism is the belief that all religions lead to the same general thing: Hinduism, the world's thrid largest religion, is Universalist, in that it believes that the deity is all-pervasive, and, therefore, a Sihk or a Wiccan is also worshipping the same, ULTIMATE source.
Those are not Muslims. The Quran says non believers are evil, and deserve to be punished.
Hinduism is a diverse system of thought with beliefs spanning monotheism, polytheism,panentheism, pantheism, monism, and atheism, and its concept of God is complex and depends upon each particular tradition and philosophy. It is sometimes referred to as henotheistic (i.e., involving devotion to a single god while accepting the existence of others), but any such term is an overgeneralization.
Being a non belief, it makes any god you do not know about "atheistic". eg a god like zeus would not be coincided an ultimate source.
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk
To say that all religions oppose all other religions is completely untrue, and anyone who has ever taken an entry level class in Comparitive Religion can tell you that.
No, as I said, many religions, including, ahem, Unitarian UNIVSALISTS belief that all religions are valid.
Unless you know of every type of deity and accept them all, then you are atheistic. eg How many would accept the flying spaghetti monster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk
And anyway, as I have been saying, even if one believes that another is wrong, there should still be some respect towards that person and his or her beliefs. One does not have to agree with the tactics, no, and it is fine to be againsts, say, a fanatic Muslim, as long as they understand that it is the fanaticism that is the problem, and not the Islam.
Atheism is fine, are every other belief systems or lack there of: it is the fanaticism and it's manifestations that are the problem.
So, my belief that creationism is a Myth means I sound like a member of a Creationists organization? Okay...
No. I do not respect beliefs, only the person. We have never been expect to respect other peoples belief, except when it comes to religious belief.
Muslims who blow themselves up are just following their scriptures, it's their belief.
Its dogma that is the problem, and most religions are immersed in it.
No your ideas about atheism, are exactly the same BS propaganda that creationist organizations put out.
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