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That's one of the things that makes religion seem not credible. If there's a God who has the power to do anything why would he go through a middle man so to speak and have them write a book that's going to contain all kinds of man made errors. Why didn't he just communicate directly with every human being and skip these books altogether?
Well, weren't the "original 10" we've been discussing handed down pretty supernaturally to Moses on Mt. Sinai?!
God could just part the clouds and write a message in the sky:
Hey, Montana. I really do exist and I love you! Believe on my Son!
By the way, that's kinda what happened to St. Paul on Damascus Road. But admittedly, it doesn't happen often. Why? Well, again, it's makes me a little uncomfortable to speak for God about why He chooses to do something. The Bible states that His ways are not our ways....
And for whatever reason which I don't fully understand, He seems to value "faith." It just seems to be if He reveals Himself to the extent that we have no choice other than to believe, if He reveals His glory and power to the extent that no one in their right mind would oppose Him, then He's obliterated his "free will" and "liking faith" program.
Who knows? Just some of my Sunday morning ramblings....
Happy Sunday, everybody!
I had a slam dunk with that question and now you're trying to wiggle out of it. That's ok, I know how these things go. However, if you take a point of view that the OT is the part we don't need to pay as much attention to or it's outdated by the NT then why do people make such a fuss about Genesis?
Ok, as hard as it is to answer this question, I am giving it a try.
The ten commandments were given as law to Moses to give to the Jewish people. He was ( in my opinion) establishing structure in order for the bickering to stop and the focus of ME to change back to Him.
Jesus was the only peson to walk the earth who did not sin, thus is the only one who always obeyed the 10 commandments. He came, not to judge, but to fulfill the law.
Jesus is the NT, the offering up to God for sin. We are to honor all the Bible yet our salvation comes from Jesus Christ. We, Christians focus so much on the NT simply because of our HOPE in Jesus Christ.
In order to strive to live as sinless as Jesus did, we are to try to keep all the commandments, all the while knowing that anything we do or do not do is still unacceptable to God without the blood covering of Jesus.
It's like the person who has a HERO they look up to. This person strives to be just like his/her hero, all the while realizing they can never be as good as this HERO. But this does not stop him/her from trying to be the best he/she can be.
The ten commandments are a model/standard that we strive to achieve. Like a goal, we try hard to reach this goal which is set at an impossibly high level. Our sin nature equals failure and without help (Jesus) we would quit striving to be the best we could be and give up.
Thoughts on Genesis. It is the foundation of the world to us believers. It is where earth was created, where man was created. The birth of all. At least this is my take on this book.
Just my thoughts on this.
Last edited by aiangel_writer; 05-27-2007 at 12:35 PM..
It just seems to be if He reveals Himself to the extent that we have no choice other than to believe, if He reveals His glory and power to the extent that no one in their right mind would oppose Him, then He's obliterated his "free will" and "liking faith" program.
I thought free will referred to our actions, not our particular view of reality?
Isn't Original Sin a result of Adam and Eve using their free will to disobey an order from God?
People don't "will" themselves into having a particular world view. No one wakes up one morning and says, "I think I'll believe in the existence of Zeus today," to be followed at noon by, "Yes, I have decided to believe in the Truth of Sasquatch."
People come to view reality through a process. This process differs among individuals, but almost always is affected by era, culture, intelligence, education, upbringing, life experiences, other factors not associated with "will."
One's world view can be predicted, as well. Give me a random sampling of people from the Middle East, and I can accurately predict that most will believe in Allah. On a different note, a correlation between education and acceptance of science can be shown.
How one sees reality is anything but a random "choice." Furthermore, if God does exist, He gave us minds for a reason. It takes little intelligence or knowledge to "decide" to believe in this or that world view.
Last edited by nvxplorer; 05-27-2007 at 12:48 PM..
I thought free will referred to our actions, not our particular view of reality?
Isn't Original Sin a result of Adam and Eve using their free will to disobey an order from God?
People don't "will" themselves into having a particular world view. No one wakes up one morning and says, "I think I'll believe in the existence of Zeus today," to be followed at noon by, "Yes, I have decided to believe in the Truth of Sasquatch."
People come to view reality through a process. This process differs among individuals, but almost always is affected by era, culture, intelligence, education, upbringing, life experiences, other factors not associated with "will."
One's world view can be predicted, as well. Give me a random sampling of people from the Middle East, and I can accurately predict that most will believe in Allah. On a different note, a correlation between education and acceptance of science can be shown.
How one sees reality is anything but a random "choice." Furthermore, if God does exist, He gave us minds for a reason. It takes little intelligence or knowledge to "decide" to believe in this or that world view.
Well, I just mean that if God were to suddenly reveal Himself to the extent that we had no choice but to know He exists, we would also pretty much have no choice about obedience and worshipping Him either...which would essentially violate our free will. In other words, we would choose Him because we were forced to do so. I was just trying to address MG's "why the middleman question" which is essentially unknowable. Who can know the mind of God except the things He has revealed?
You spoke of God giving us minds and He did. At some point we get to end of our own reasoning powers though. And there are scriptures where God seems to accommodate cases of honest doubt. The disciple, Thomas, for example. Jesus let him examine His piercings. Jiesus spoke of John the Baptist "as the greatest prophet born of a woman" was it? And at this point, John was in prison struggling with some pretty heavy doubts about who Jesus was and/or his mission. And then there was the father who came to Jesus saying, "I believe. Help my unbelief." But, again, it seems like God values faith highly. Didn't He tell Thomas, "but blessed are those who HAVEN"T seen but yet believe."
As you can see, the “10 Commandments” actually consist of 17 statements, and there are no instructions in the Bible on how we are to combine and group these 17 statements so we end up with Ten Commandments. This presents us with an immediate problem -- how do we combine and group the 17 statements so we arrive at 10 commandments? The answer is no one agrees.
This brings up an interesting question that probably only a Biblical Scholar would know the answer to (hopefully there is one out there!).
I know that the bible was not written in chapters and verses... those were added later to make it easier to cited certain parts. Was the original text written with the "don't covet" portions lumped together or split up like the verses are? Either way it brings up an interesting question about why they are lumped in one way and separated in another.
PS, is writing a post on Sunday considered working, and thus a violation of one the 10 Commandments?
Well, I just mean that if God were to suddenly reveal Himself to the extent that we had no choice but to know He exists, we would also pretty much have no choice about obedience and worshipping Him either...which would essentially violate our free will. In other words, we would choose Him because we were forced to do so.
The story of Adam and Eve suggests differently.
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And again I don't know why God seems to value faith so much but all through the Bible, He does. I was just trying to address MG's "why the middleman question" which is essentially unknowable. Who can know the mind of God except the things He has revealed?
I understand this, but I was pointing out that how one arrives at his or her worldview is not a result of free will. It is a conclusion based on various factors, some of which I listed.
For example, if I ask you whether you believe 2 + 2 = 5 to be a true statement, how you answer will depend on your knowledge of arithmetic, not free will. Assuming you understand addition (), you won't be able to will yourself into believing the statement to be true.
How we arrive at our worldviews is no different. Did you wake up one morning and will yourself into believing Christianity? I imagine there are always exceptions to every rule, but virtually all believers come to believe through a process that has nothing to do with will.
The same holds true for non-believers. I didn't "choose" to be an atheist any more than I chose to disbelieve the existence of unicorns. As I have not seen evidence for unicorns, I have not seen evidence for supernatural deities. As someone who requires a level of empirical evidence, I cannot "will" myself to believe something without such evidence.
It's for these reasons (and others) that I find the claim that faith is a matter of choice/free will to be fallacious.
The ten commandments are a model/standard that we strive to achieve. Like a goal, we try hard to reach this goal which is set at an impossibly high level.
Ok, your explanations make sense but the particular commandment I mentioned about not working on the sabbath would be one of the easiest ones to obey but I actually don't think I've even met anyone who does obey it. So there's about 20 people who said that the ten commandments should be obeyed on this poll but our whole society accepts that people work every day of the week for various jobs. I just think it's odd that everybody just lets this one slide and Christians don't even mention it even though the OT states that someone working on the sabbath should be stoned to death.
Ok, your explanations make sense but the particular commandment I mentioned about not working on the sabbath would be one of the easiest ones to obey but I actually don't think I've even met anyone who does obey it. So there's about 20 people who said that the ten commandments should be obeyed on this poll but our whole society accepts that people work every day of the week for various jobs. I just think it's odd that everybody just lets this one slide and Christians don't even mention it even though the OT states that someone working on the sabbath should be stoned to death.
I have not done a thing today. Which is when we observe the sabbath. And, when I owned my store, I simply refused to open on Sunday. Even though there were plenty of customers who wanted me to, and the other stores in this area do open, I chose not to because of my faith.
I don't see though, how we can pick and choose any of the ten commandments to follow or not to follow simply because it states that all sin is equal.
There is not one of us who does not fall victim to sin of any of the commandments at any given time.
I do understand where you are coming from though, and yes, we should more than try, we should keep the commandments that are easier to follow. I am guilty of them all, at some point or other, but I do try extremely hard to keep the Sabbath.
LOL, I know as I have grown older, it is easier to not commit adultery/lust. Did I just admit that.
And I could not lie down at night to sleep if I were a thief.
OK, I do admit to the murder one, as we all know even to think is to sin, and there have been times when I was so mad at my dh I could have clobbered him then and there!
I've been known to not completely tell the whole truth, but as I grow older, I try to not let myself get into these types of situations in order to not hurt someones feelings or to have to hit my knees for a white lie. I also try to think more before I speak, so I can guard my tongue more.
I do take the ten commandments seriously, more so since I have gotten stronger in my walk in faith. Each person will have differing viewpoints on this discussion. Just as many of us believe differently as Christians.
I am quite sure that confuses the heck out of someone who does not share the Christian faith. LOL, it sometimes confuses me as well. But the old saying of you can tell one person one thing and by the time twenty people have heard it, the concept will have totally changed.
What I strive to do is to be the best Christian I know how to be at this time, and if I feel convicted to work on an area, I do. Only God can know what is totally right, but He does know our hearts and will direct us when and how we need it. I cannot just believe something simply because someone else believes the way they do, nor disbelieve on the same reasoning.
I guess that is why I have a hard time finding a church that I feel comfortable in. Which really bothered me for years and years, but when I quit going to church, my walk in faith became so much stronger and I grew in knowledge of the Bible and am still growing although I do attend a local church most of the time now, my youngest son attends ( he is 13) and I started attending since I was carrying him there anyway.
I am going to hush now, am trying to get this typed in between listening to that young son and trying to lay out our food for dinner. So, if this does not make sense, I apologize now for being scatter brained today.
Hope all have a great day and great day tomorrow, I will be on and off.
I have not done a thing today. Which is when we observe the sabbath. And, when I owned my store, I simply refused to open on Sunday. Even though there were plenty of customers who wanted me to, and the other stores in this area do open, I chose not to because of my faith.
I was told that Saturday is the Sabbath. This makes sense, being the seventh day of the week. Which is it?
I was told that Saturday is the Sabbath. This makes sense, being the seventh day of the week. Which is it?
Oh I knew someone was going to ask that question, that is why I said that we observe Sunday. Here it has always been observed Sunday, and later in my adult life I find out that many say Saturday with Sunday being the first day of the week. Sigh. I really do not know which day it is, but I observe it on Sunday.
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), you won't be able to will yourself into believing the statement to be true.
Did I just admit that. 
OK, I do admit to the murder one, as we all know even to think is to sin, and there have been times when I was so mad at my dh I could have clobbered him then and there!
