Do we underestimate and downplay how Great Sacramento weather really is? (Los Angeles: murder rate, skyline)

[mxcolin]

No, this is all Winter data, not annual data. Let me ask you a direct question. Which city in the USA outside of the regions above has a wetter winter than Sacramento, not a wetter winter in comparison to its summer?

[mxcolin]

Originally Posted by mixxalot

Best place would be winter home in south Florida and summer cabin in Idaho or Montana if I was wealthy and could afford to be independent retired.

No arguments here!!!

[tstieber]

Originally Posted by Chimérique

^^^^^

But you have not shown winter only rainfall data, nor the source, rather you have shown only annual rainfall. Most of the metros across the USA receive the LEAST amount of their rain in the winter months. It is the opposite with Sacramento (and Mediterranean & PNW climates) where almost all of our rainfall comes in just 3-4 months.

On another note, listing the mean temps is fine to an extent as the mean is an average of the low and high temps, but it does not fully capture how LONG it was hot or cold.

Looking at mode is an alternative way to do that as it looks at the temp for each hour of a 24hour period and gives the temp that occurs the most. So on a winter day with a high of 56F and low of 34F, the mean is 45F. But the mode would show you which temp of every hour that occurred the most during that 24 hour period. You could see which temp occurs the most for that day, let's say the mode was 35F because it was 35F for the most amount of hours on that particular day not 45F, the mean.

One thing you guys aren't discussing as much as the rainfall amounts is the frequency of rainfall. I would definitely agree with you that Sacramento gets more rain during the winter months than many parts of the country, because pretty much the entire annual rainfall occurs in only a few months. However, I would be surprised if Sacramento had noticeably more rainy days than most of the country, and it certainly has fewer of them than the Pacific Northwest. As is typical in California, rainfall tends to be heavier when it rains, but it rains less often than in many places that get little bits of rain here and there.

I always think it's a very important point about temperatures, which you also bring up above, namely the number of hours at certain temperatures rather than just the high and low temps. It's actually a measure by which I think Sacramento has phenomenally nice summers, despite the briefly hot afternoons for maybe four or five hours, because you tend to have nice warm evenings lingering into the sunset and dinner hours. By comparison, I live in Inland San Diego, where it may be nicer at 3:00 p.m. in July, but by 7:00 p.m., it's dropped into the 60s, and we're not having dinner outside. The opposite happens in the winter, where my neighborhood can get into the 30s at night, similar to sacramento, but most of the time, it will start warming up much earlier in the day so that there is a longer window of comfortability here. Another great example of this aspect of climate was many years ago, when we were camping on the shores of South Lake Tahoe in the summer. I was shocked how warm it still was at 11:00 at night, but by 6:00 a.m. the temperature had suddenly dropped to the upper 30s. As soon as the sun came up, it got warm again. It was just a very very brief couple of hours of freezing cold. I don't think there are a lot of data around this phenomenon, but it contributes greatly to comfortability. I also have to think about San Francisco in the summer. It may hit 70°, but that's for 10 minutes, and the wind is howling.

A couple of posts ago, you mentioned that Sacramento has winter temperatures more similar to the Pacific Northwest than Southern california. While that maybe true in regards to average high temperatures, which seem to be about 8° colder in the coastal Northwest and 10 or 11° warmer in coastal Southern california, the overall climactic pattern of Sacramento is much more similar to the rest of california, including Southern California. The number of rainy days, cloudy days, sunny days, and rainfall distribution are much more similar within the Mediterranean climate of California than the maritime climate of the Northwest, even though it also enjoys some Mediterranean influences. But much more significant is the lack of weather extremes in Sacramento. Places like Portland and Seattle experience ice storms and snowfall on an infrequent but annual basis, and extreme snowfall and cold events also occur. As we speak, Seattle is looking at a high temperature of 24 and a low of 14 today. Sacramento is expecting 51 and 43. While that degree of cold is uncommon in Seattle, those extremes do occur with some regularity but do not occur in Sacramento or anywhere else in California, and the vegetation between Sacramento and Southern California is more similar than between Sacramento and seattle. Even the commercial Citrus growing that occurs in the lower elevations of the Foothills is a testament to the overall climactic similarity within California, which the deceptively mild midwinter averages of Portland and Seattle don't reflect. So in this case, I would also not rely solely on average highs and lows to make the comparison, just as you made the same point about hourly temperatures

[mxcolin]

It's definitely more complex than can be argued out, Sacramento in winter is absolutely closer to Southern California in general when you factor in everything, than it is to the PNW. And as I point out, if you look at rain/snow and temperatures, there is a very small part of the country by percentage that's drier, an even smaller percentage that's warmer, and a very small percentage that's both drier and warmer in winter. Having lived in SoCal there is a brief period of warm most afternoons in the winter, but's it's generally quite cold outside of that. People in Sacramento in the main have only experienced 2 climates, maybe 3 and it really skews their perception of winter in Sacramento. When I get time I'll post a map with the places colored that are drier and warmer in Winter, it's a tiny sliver of the whole country, probably less than 5%. Having actually lived myself in places that have actual winters, it makes me laugh and wonder how some people would survive living though a winter in these places.

[Chimérique]

MX,

Your own temp numbers that you posted show that Sacramento is closer in temp to the PNW versus SoCal, in the winter, both highs and lows. Also, remember you are not factoring in the whole Sacto Metro which includes Sierra temps and snow which make Sac even colder and wetter.

[mxcolin]

Factoring in Tahoe for Sacramento and the High Desert/Mountains for LA, where does that end though. We all know what we're talking about. Again, simple question, do you believe Sacramento has wet winters when compared to the rest of the United States? If so, outside of the small number of areas we agree on. Where else in the other 90% of the country am I missing? Which other place outside of SoCal, Texas Triangle, Florida, Hawaii, Denver, Kansas City, The Gulf Coast?

[tstieber]

Originally Posted by Chimérique

MX,

Your own temp numbers that you posted show that Sacramento is closer in temp to the PNW versus SoCal, in the winter, both highs and lows. Also, remember you are not factoring in the whole Sacto Metro which includes Sierra temps and snow which make Sac even colder and wetter.

If the Sierras are Sacramento metro, then Big Bear, Lake Arrowhead, and Mt San Jacinto are LA Metro, and Mt Charleston is Las Vegas metro. That's making up your own definitions and mixing together and averaging completely different climates and landscaps. Let's please stick to urban metro areas for consistency.

[tstieber]

Originally Posted by mxcolin

. Having lived in SoCal there is a brief period of warm most afternoons in the winter, but's it's generally quite cold outside of that.

This is very on point. We may get a couple of hours of mild afternoon temps, but the cooldown is very fast by mid-afternoon. It's also quite unpredictable what sort of temperatures one will get any given winter. Recently, we haven't had any warm weather at all, we've been struggling to reach the low 60s on some days, 50s and others. Last year, we had 11 months of blow average temperatures. But I guess it's better than drought. The drought winters were like insanely nice but at the expense of nature...

[mixxalot]

Arctic blast is causing the really cold weather here.

[tstieber]

Originally Posted by mixxalot

Arctic blast is causing the really cold weather here.

Do you mean up in Portland? I see NorCal is unpleasantly chilly right now but with a low in the mid-40s, it's still far from arctic. It's 18° in Portland right now, really awful and blowing snow.

We actually got up to 64 in our neighborhood today! But right now, it's back to the upper 40s, almost the same as where you are. But it was nice for a few hours!