Incarnate Word Student Killed During Traffic Stop (West: apartment complex, felony)

[ItsTheTruth]

Neshomamench, one more question for you. The cop claims he was hit several times in the head with his police-issue collapsible baton before he was able to fight back and get it back. Have you ever struck someone with your baton in the head, or could you imagine someone being able to withstand several of those strikes to the head without injury?

[WilGar]

Originally Posted by TexasRedneck

Many major crimes are solved because of the minor infractions the perps commit in sight of the law. Should we have a threshold of lawlessness before we allow the PD to react?

And did the student have any infractions?

[Neshomamench]

Originally Posted by ItsTheTruth

Actually, no, it's doesn't even matter. That cop shot an unarmed student. There is no scenario where that is justified.

First of all, if you want to be honest, you cant call him a student. In most cases, cops dont have a clue who they are dealing with other than some physical characteristics. You cant ascribe things known after the fact to the incident.

There are many situations where you shoot and unarmed person. As I have explained before, If you are losing a fight. If you are outnumbered, if you are in a rear choke hold. Those are cut and dry. there are many other cases that could be ok.

[Neshomamench]

Originally Posted by ItsTheTruth

Neshomamench, one more question for you. The cop claims he was hit several times in the head with his police-issue collapsible baton before he was able to fight back and get it back. Have you ever struck someone with your baton in the head, or could you imagine someone being able to withstand several of those strikes to the head without injury?

Your question is flawed. All impacts cause injury. The question is, what impairment does that injury cause? I have seen people go to the ground and beg for death with one blow from a baton to the arm. There are people who have been shot 20 times and still fight.

So of course people can sustain massive amounts of injuries and stay in the fight. I have used by baton twice in a violent way. The results were good but it didnt "drop" anyone. It just made them make the rational choice they didnt want to get hit any more.

For an opinion, lot of cops dont trust their collapsible batons because they fail so many cops so often. People bent of fighting or getting away (and high or drunk) can take an amazing amount of pounding. I am not going to say cops are all bad super ninja fighters....but most cops know what a real fight looks like and a fair number know what a lot of real fights look like. Thye sure dont look like anything you will ever see, until you have seen/been in a few real street fights. If we eliminate people who ball up in a fight (a lot of people) and eliminate the people who run away (a lot of people) and just leave behind the Alpha types....those people dont stop fighting until they are stopped. That is the nature of fighting for your life. You fight until you cant. Getting hit or beat on....if you are not out, you are still in the fight.

[Neshomamench]

Originally Posted by WilGar

And did the student have any infractions?

If the officer believed he witnessed him break any law in the State of Texas, which it appears no one is arguing that. He gave the Officer probable cause for the officer to investigate (make traffic stop) and arrest the student. (everything, be it running a stop sign or not wearing a seatbelt is an arrestable offence in Texas with only two exceptions, speeding and open container)


If you drive down the road with a headlight out, you can be pulled over. The Officer has a legal reason to be in your like. If he discovers something else in the process, so be it.

[HeadedWest]

Originally Posted by Neshomamench

(everything, be it running a stop sign or not wearing a seatbelt is an arrestable offence in Texas with only two exceptions, speeding and open container)

No seatbelt an arrestable offense? Silly.

[ItsTheTruth]

Originally Posted by Neshomamench

Your question is flawed. All impacts cause injury. The question is, what impairment does that injury cause? I have seen people go to the ground and beg for death with one blow from a baton to the arm. There are people who have been shot 20 times and still fight.

So of course people can sustain massive amounts of injuries and stay in the fight.

For an opinion, lot of cops dont trust their collapsible batons because they fail so many cops so often. People bent of fighting or getting away (and high or drunk) can take an amazing amount of pounding. I am not going to say cops are all bad super ninja fighters....but most cops know what a real fight looks like and a fair number know what a lot of real fights look like. Thye sure dont look like anything you will ever see, until you have seen/been in a few real street fights. If we eliminate people who ball up in a fight (a lot of people) and eliminate the people who run away (a lot of people) and just leave behind the Alpha types....those people dont stop fighting until they are stopped. That is the nature of fighting for your life. You fight until you cant. Getting hit or beat on....if you are not out, you are still in the fight.

Ok, would a person (considering your expertise handling a baton) be able to sustain multiple strikes to the head with a baton without having any injuries? No blood, no scratches, no bruises. Because that is what the cop in question is claiming.

[pr57001]

Originally Posted by WilGar

And did the student have any infractions?

It doesn't matter.

If this story was about how a drunk driver ran over two people on broadway, and a witness watched the car sail by a marked UIW police cruiser, travel another mile and crash, this discussion would be about how the cop was lazy, did not intervene and contributed to the death of two innocent people. You can't have it both ways.

I live off Broadway. You NEVER see UIW police routinely running traffic on and around broadway. Ever. Clearly, something exceptional happened that night which prompted the officer to do the traffic stop in the fist place.

[Neshomamench]

Originally Posted by bspray

Are you seriously trying to draw a parallel between a minor traffic violation and murder?

If I pull someone over for a headlight out and he tries to kill me, then the issue isnt the traffic violation anymore.

I say again, I dont know what happened...but no matter what happened, it is not honest to say what you just said. Your statement assumes that situations cant escalate. Do you really want to take a stand that traffic stops dont escalate?


Like most things in life. It isnt where you start, it is where you end up, which is the very nature of an investigation. When you get pulled over for whatever you were pulled over for, it is officially and investigation. Investigations uncover things, that is what the word means.

[ItsTheTruth]

Originally Posted by Neshomamench

First of all, if you want to be honest, you cant call him a student. In most cases, cops dont have a clue who they are dealing with other than some physical characteristics. You cant ascribe things known after the fact to the incident.

There are many situations where you shoot and unarmed person. As I have explained before, If you are losing a fight. If you are outnumbered, if you are in a rear choke hold. Those are cut and dry. there are many other cases that could be ok.

We both know that all cops makes assumptions about everyone they pull over. It is human nature. So when you see a skinny white kid, early 20's, turning into an apartment complex where hundreds of students live, a few blocks away from a university, would you assume that he's a student? You're obviously not thinking, "Wow, I've probably got a big time crack dealer on my hands!" or "This gangbanger must have some guns!"

If you can't even admit to that, then I have seriously overestimated your professional abilities, and perhaps it is time for you to find a new career path.

And no, if you're losing a fight to an unarmed student, that is not a situation to shoot someone. The courts have already dealt with this as well. A person is well within their rights to combat deadly force with deadly force, even if the attack is coming from a police officer. If that cop struck him with the baton, then he had every right to fight back. This will all be proven soon, and that cop better pray I'm not selected for jury duty.