The OFFICIAL THREAD for San Diego Politics and Propositions: READ HERE FIRST

[bunky3301]

Originally Posted by sav858

Separate but equal is not equal. And you quoted me yet did not actually answer the question in the quote. I've answered your question now answer mine: How does gay marriage effect you in any personal way? I've asked this question many times and no one has given me a REAL answer, which to me just shows it doesn't and it's just personal prejudices that people are too afraid to admit to.

I honestly just don't get how this affects any marriages at all. So you apparently support government intrusion into people's personal lives and telling them how to live??

Sav,

It's not that it affects "any" marriage per se. But the what marriage is and thats a committment or union between one man , one women. People that are against same sex marriage aren't against gays committing to each another but don't ask us to give up our principles of Marriage in the true sense. One women , one man in the eyes of God. Hopefully that marriage would result with a complete family including children.

I have a question for you too Sav, where does it end? Would it be ok if 3 men wanted to commit to each other? 2men 1women? 2women 1man? 3 women? What then ,would it be ok for them to all be married? There committed right? Should we start a new movement for multiples to be married? Anything goes right?

[FinkieMcGee]

Originally Posted by msconnie73

Homosexuality and interracial relationships are two separate things. When interracial marriage became legal, it did not change the fundamental definition of marriage as it has been known since time began. You cannot change the color of your skin but you can change your sexual orientation (I personally know of people who have walked away from homosexuality). Banning interracial marriage was wrong and I'm glad that was overturned. I do not agree with changing the fundamental definition of marriage to accommodate same sex couples, even if I had children who chose the gay lifestyle.

Do you really think people like Matthew Sheppard chose to be gay? Seems like kind of a horrible decision.

Originally Posted by bunky3301

I have a question for you too Sav, where does it end? Would it be ok if 3 men wanted to commit to each other? 2men 1women? 2women 1man? 3 women? What then ,would it be ok for them to all be married? There committed right? Should we start a new movement for multiples to be married? Anything goes right?

Sure, as long as everyone consents I don't really see anything wrong with it. What do you think is wrong with it?

[sdurbanite]

Sorry I'm late to the party. Been out of the country for 2 weeks or I would have responded here earlier.

Originally Posted by hanna_house

Who the heck should decide these things if not the people of this state? Why don't you live in a military dictatorship if you want to flush your rights down the toliet? Oh but I'm sure you're praising the vote of the American people today for electing your new Messiah! Such double standards. You HATE anyone who doesn't agree with your twisted way of thinking. At the end of the day I may not be happy with the result of this presidential election but I accept the will of the people and would never support the supreme court overruling the results just because they didn't swing in my favor! I believe in this system because it works.

It's ironic that you are mentioning "flushing your rights down the toilet" when you are obviously ok with Prop 8's passage to take people's rights away. I only assume that you are a woman (hanna?), but how would you feel if women's rights were away, ie, voting, serving in military, holding office, among many others? You are aware that it wasn't long ago that women were treated as second class citizens, right? If it weren't for the courts coming to the rescue, you, your mother and sister would be nothing more than baby-making, housewives today. You should be glad that the "majority" didn't have the final say in those matters. And for you to dismiss the similarities between racial equality and gay equality is completely ignorant.

Originally Posted by missconnie73

You cannot change the color of your skin but you can change your sexual orientation (I personally know of people who have walked away from homosexuality). Banning interracial marriage was wrong and I'm glad that was overturned. I do not agree with changing the fundamental definition of marriage to accommodate same sex couples, even if I had children who chose the gay lifestyle.

Are you kidding me? Do you really think people choose to be gay so that they could put up with bigots and discrimation everyday of their lives? And you know people to have been "straightened"? LOL You poor thing. I bet you think they are loyal to their spouses, thus protecting the sanctity of marriage, right?

Wake up, connie! Those closet cases are fulfilling their needs elsewhere, ie, out of town business trips, afterwork meetings, weekends trips with buddies, the local gym, public restrooms, etc. You really have NO idea what is going on out there, do you? Have you forgotten about upstanding, married citizens like Former NJ Governor Jim McGreevey, Evangelical Church Leader Ted Haggard or Larry "Wide Stance" Craig? If so, look them up. Suppressing gay people only results in more broken families and heartache in the future. Pray hard that your son, brother, daughter or sister doesn't end up marrying a "cured" gay, ok?

Since you you seem to be so high and mighty about the fundamental definition of marriage why not take it further and make divorce illegal? That way, miserable people can stay together for the rest of their sorry lives no matter what.

Even more, since it seems to be a requirement that men and women must pro-create for the good of society, let's make it a requirement that all married couples must have children or else risk voiding their marriages. Yep, those people on welfare and teens must have kids or else.

And because having children is a requirement of marriage, we'll have to ban people who aren't able to have kids from getting married. So that woman who had a hysterectomy at an early age, and the guy with a low sperm count that can't reproduce will have to be alone for the rest of their lives, all because of what the bible says.

Shall we put the latter items on a future proposition to be voted on by folks like you?

Originally Posted by bunky3301

I have a question for you too Sav, where does it end? Would it be ok if 3 men wanted to commit to each other? 2men 1women? 2women 1man? 3 women? What then ,would it be ok for them to all be married? There committed right? Should we start a new movement for multiples to be married? Anything goes right?

Why stop there? What about the guy who wants to marry his favorite merino wool sweater? Or the woman who wants to marry her 5 carat diamond ring? I'd be the first one to show up at the ceremony? Why? Because afterwards, it won't affect the way I live, whatsoever.

It's funny how the bible is what people are suppose to live by, and yet, it teaches so much hate. Hypocrisy at it's finest.

[sav858]

Originally Posted by bunky3301

Sav,

It's not that it affects "any" marriage per se. But the what marriage is and thats a committment or union between one man , one women. People that are against same sex marriage aren't against gays committing to each another but don't ask us to give up our principles of Marriage in the true sense. One women , one man in the eyes of God. Hopefully that marriage would result with a complete family including children.

I have a question for you too Sav, where does it end? Would it be ok if 3 men wanted to commit to each other? 2men 1women? 2women 1man? 3 women? What then ,would it be ok for them to all be married? There committed right? Should we start a new movement for multiples to be married? Anything goes right?

How are you giving up your principles?? The govt is not forcing you to accept gay marriage, just tolerate it. You don't have to believe in gay marriage to tolerate it. You can still believe marriage is just between one man and one woman and you don't have to recognize the marriage between a gay couple if you don't want to. If your god, church, or whatever doesn't want to recognize gay marriage then so be it. But when it comes to the government, it shouldn't discriminate just b/c that is what some people believe.

So I ask you again b/c your answer didn't even answer anything, all you said was some empty rhetoric about "giving up your principles", but what does that even mean? How is allowing two STRANGERS you do not know and have no vested interest in to marry actually have any affect on your marriage? Nothing is being taken away from your principles or marriage except in your own head.

Gay couples with children are families as well, maybe not in yours or others eyes but they are real families. And Prop 8 has caused a lot of heartache and pain for many of those families. How is that okay with you? Just b/c you don't like the idea of two gay people marring that somehow gives you some right to cause heartache to a lot of gay families?

The biggest problem with polygamy today is that there are under aged girls involved many times and therefore a victim. It's not two consenting adults and therefor there is a good reason for it to be legal, that is not the case with gay marriage. But honestly I am not that aware or informed on the subject of polygamy so its hard for me to speak on it and to say whether I think it's an okay form of marriage or not. If I knew more then I could say more about it but I don't. But if it doesn't negatively impact anyone or society then I don't see a good reason for laws against it. Socially I prefer to take a Libertarian type point of view on many things, I don't believe the govt should be intruding on people's personal lives when one isn't harming another person in anyway by doing what they do. Do you think it's alright for the govt to tell people how to live their personal lives?

[bunky3301]

So Sav858 and Sdurbanite your argument is basically anything goes , there is no right or wrong? Strong beliefs and traditions , principles are thrown out the window in almost any situation. Live and let live without any repercussions whatsoever?

I'm guessing you guys voted in the recent election and I'm guessing it was for Pres. Elect Obama? Right? Well he as well is against same sex marriage and you don't get much more liberal then Pres. Elect Obama. Is he a bigot? Has he come to his decision because it hurts his marriage is some way personally? No I'm sure its his BELIEF system that he and others have in place within themselves. Don't ask us to change our belief systems, because I know I won't ask you to.

I wish Government would never had gotten into the middle of this in the first place. It is for the churches to decide. But the problem came with the legal rights that come along with marriage. Thats where the problem gets to blurry and complicated in my view. But the homosexual community dragged the government and the courts into this fight now and have to pay the price for that.

Guy/gals we are probably going to have to agree to disagree on this one , who of us can really say we're right? All we can do is stand by our convictions and hold true to them as we see fit.

Please, please this debate has mostly been above board. But name calling like bigots , haters is above most posters that I see post here in the San Diego forums on a regular basis. I know this is a passionate debate/fight whatever you wish to call it but, in the end we all want what is best for our community,State, Country. Also we have one common bond here as well, that we all/most of us like, love and have a deep appreciation for San Diego and the surrounding areas.

[MAK802]

Originally Posted by bunky3301

I wish Government would never had gotten into the middle of this in the first place. It is for the churches to decide.

What does the church have to do with marriage? One does not need a church's permission in order to be married. I know plenty of people and have attended plenty of weddings that had nothing to do with religion. So yea, it is the government's problem and the church should stay out of it and begin practicing what they preach.

[FinkieMcGee]

Originally Posted by bunky3301

So Sav858 and Sdurbanite your argument is basically anything goes , there is no right or wrong? Strong beliefs and traditions , principles are thrown out the window in almost any situation. Live and let live without any repercussions whatsoever?

It's not the government's job to legislate tradition. If so how about we put some Armenian tradition in there so I can get some representation? Christmas is being rescheduled to January 6th so that I don't have to take a day off to celebrate.

[sav858]

Originally Posted by bunky3301

So Sav858 and Sdurbanite your argument is basically anything goes , there is no right or wrong?

NO that is not my argument at all but interpreting it that way makes it easier for you to argue your position obviously.

My argument was that basically this has no effect on you whatsoever and you still have not actually answered how it does. Saying it goes against your principles still does NOT explain how this affects you in any way personally and negatively. You don't have to like it but that doesn't give you some moral high ground to tell other people what they can and cannot do according to how YOU think it should be.

You still haven't answered how this actually affects you aside from you letting it affect you. Once again another person avoids the tough questions and tries to dance around it.

Strong beliefs and traditions , principles are thrown out the window in almost any situation. Live and let live without any repercussions whatsoever?

And what repercussions are we talking about with allowing gays to marry? Has society in Massachusetts broken down since 2004? Is anything actually different than 2004? Is marriage in Canada falling apart? Do you have anything that actually hints or proves that there will be any sort of repercussions from allowing gay marriage?

I'm guessing you guys voted in the recent election and I'm guessing it was for Pres. Elect Obama? Right? Well he as well is against same sex marriage and you don't get much more liberal then Pres. Elect Obama. Is he a bigot? Has he come to his decision because it hurts his marriage is some way personally? No I'm sure its his BELIEF system that he and others have in place within themselves.

Okay....I don't agree with Obama with this issue at all. Do you make some assumption that I blindly follow the great Obama and support everything he does and says??

And I never automatically labeled anyone who doesn't support gay marriage as a bigot, including yourself, so don't start acting like I did.

Don't ask us to change our belief systems, because I know I won't ask you to.

No one is asking you to change your belief system. Just b/c the govt allows it doesn't mean you have to believe in it. Just b/c the govt allows gay marriage doesn't mean you have to recognize it or believe in it at all. Do you just go along with everything the govt does and "believe" in it?

But you are telling others they can't marry b/c YOU don't believe in it. You are imposing your personal views on other people and restricting them the right to marry. Their view of being pro gay marriage does not restrict your right to not believe in gay marriage at all now does it??

I wish Government would never had gotten into the middle of this in the first place. It is for the churches to decide. But the problem came with the legal rights that come along with marriage. Thats where the problem gets to blurry and complicated in my view

I pretty much agree with this, keep govt out of "marriage" and just give everyone civil unions and the same rights. But it is what it is and equality should be for all. We are not allowed to discriminate for gender, race, religion, or sexual orientation so why should marriage be different?

But the homosexual community dragged the government and the courts into this fight now and have to pay the price for that.

So they fought for equal rights and now they should be forced to pay the price of other people's prejudices and having a majority vote on the rights of a minority?

Guy/gals we are probably going to have to agree to disagree on this one , who of us can really say we're right? All we can do is stand by our convictions and hold true to them as we see fit.

Honestly I just don't get it. I don't get why people are so judgmental about this and feel that it's alright to take away people's rights based on their view of the world. Honestly, I do think it is weird and not normal by society's standards to see two men or women marry. I am grossed out by some things about the homosexual community but who the hell am I to judge these people when they are not harming anyone?

If you don't want to respond then fine but I think its BS, whenever I get into these questions I never get any real answers. I try to keep it simple and on a fundamental level and keep religion, schools, personal views on homosexuality out of it. I just don't get how this affects you or others to a point that you feel its alright to deny people the same rights as you and that is what I am trying to understand. But whenever I get to this point either no one responds or cops out like you are right now by not answering my questions. I always answer people's questions or address their comments yet people don't do it when ask these questions. If you can't back up what you say and claim then I don't get how you can actually believe it.

Please, please this debate has mostly been above board. But name calling like bigots , haters is above most posters that I see post here in the San Diego forums on a regular basis. I know this is a passionate debate/fight whatever you wish to call it but, in the end we all want what is best for our community,State, Country. Also we have one common bond here as well, that we all/most of us like, love and have a deep appreciation for San Diego and the surrounding areas.

Okay not sure what our love of San Diego has to do with this and I don't recall ever calling you any names. I am seriously just trying to get where people are coming, no one has answered the questions I've asked in this and my previous post. Every pro Prop 8 person avoids them and I want to know why.

Yes it is a heated debate and don't take what I say personally b/c I sure as hell don't. I might come off as a little blunt, abrasive, or whatever but I don't take it personally against you. I argue the issue and respect the person whether or not I agree with them.

[bunky3301]

Originally Posted by sav858

Okay not sure what our love of San Diego has to do with this and I don't recall ever calling you any names. I am seriously just trying to get where people are coming, no one has answered the questions I've asked in this and my previous post. Every pro Prop 8 person avoids them and I want to know why.

Yes it is a heated debate and don't take what I say personally b/c I sure as hell don't. I might come off as a little blunt, abrasive, or whatever but I don't take it personally against you. I argue the issue and respect the person whether or not I agree with them.

Sav,

I didn't really mean to direct some of the harsh words use in the debate to you. I said some posters have defined differing opinions as bigoted and hate :

It's funny how the bible is what people are suppose to live by, and yet, it teaches so much hate. Hypocrisy at it's finest.

I don't live by the bible, can't remember the last time I cracked it open. I do have a my own strong faith and beliefs though. Plus find on example where it teaches HATE , I would like to read that part.

I do believe people who vote yes on 8 ARE BIGOTS

These are the quotes that I was speaking of and they cheapen the debate.

Finally Sav you keep saying no one answered your question. Several have including myself and its just not what you want to hear and label it as rhetoric. All I can say is that principles and personal beliefs are important to some people.

I hold marriage to the highest standard , I wish more people would in the heterosexual society as well. But marriage has already been lessoned by most that look at marriage as not necessarily as a commitment for life. Marriage has been hurt over the years for one simple reason : VALUES , commitment , honesty, trust doesn't mean anything anymore these days.
When "morals" come back and are cool again hopefully we'll see a change. Hope I see it in my life time and we don't stick to a Nation of "what feels good is ok" no matter of whats right or wrong morally , or hurtful to your partner in marriage. Theres nothing wrong with having convictions and standards. If anything our children need it more now then they ever have in our society.

I think the main reason "Progressives" find that troubling is that they think it will take away from there individually. I don't believe that at all, no one wants a nation of robots. Morals and convictions can go hand and hand without compromising individuality.

As far as common bond for San Diego goes , I was just trying to say that although we all can have different views on certain issues that the one thing we all have in common is of the fondness we have for our community of San Diego is all.

As far as this debate goes I'm waving the "white" flag because I think I've said all I can say on the subject. This fight will flare up again maybe things will be differnent or maybe not. But as long as we keep it above the name calling it is always a better discussion.

[sav858]

Originally Posted by bunky3301

These are the quotes that I was speaking of and they cheapen the debate.

That has nothing to do with me and what I am debating here. I don't believe I have ever even called someone a bad name for supporting Prop 8 b/c what I am asking doesn't really have to do with personal feelings towards gay marriage and homosexuals but rather the fundamental question of how if it doesn't actually effect you or society in any real way then why ban it.

Finally Sav you keep saying no one answered your question. Several have including myself and its just not what you want to hear and label it as rhetoric. All I can say is that principles and personal beliefs are important to some people.

No you and others have not answered these questions b/c you refuse to explain what your answers actually even mean. I already understand that it goes against your "principles" and people think marriage is just between a man and a woman but I want to know how allowing gay marriage affects you personally in a negative way or affects you in any REAL way at all. You already said it doesn't actually affect you but then can't explain why you won't allow gay marriage despite the fact that actually has no effect on you at all.

I hold marriage to the highest standard , I wish more people would in the heterosexual society as well. But marriage has already been lessoned by most that look at marriage as not necessarily as a commitment for life. Marriage has been hurt over the years for one simple reason : VALUES , commitment , honesty, trust doesn't mean anything anymore these days.
When "morals" come back and are cool again hopefully we'll see a change. Hope I see it in my life time and we don't stick to a Nation of "what feels good is ok" no matter of whats right or wrong morally , or hurtful to your partner in marriage. Theres nothing wrong with having convictions and standards. If anything our children need it more now then they ever have in our society.

And gays will not lessen the meaning or the commitment that is marriage. You make this argument about allowing gay marriage takes away from marriage in general but don't actually explain how. I asked you how is marriage or society any different since 2004 in MA or in Canada and again another hard question you and others refuse to answer. Gay marriage will have virtually no effect on society and if you think it will then actually explain how. It hasn't caused any significant changes anywhere else where it is allowed.

I think the main reason "Progressives" find that troubling is that they think it will take away from there individually. I don't believe that at all, no one wants a nation of robots. Morals and convictions can go hand and hand without compromising individuality.

When you enforcing your "morals and convictions" on others who do not share the same view then yes it does take away something from others and I seriously cannot understand how you don't see that. You may think you have better "morals or convictions" than others and that somehow gives you the right to impose that on other people but you don't.

I just don't get the hypocrisy of many "conservatives". Always claiming to want less govt in people's lives and how much they love "freedom" yet turn around and try to force their "morals" and "convictions" down every one else's throat and make them live by their standards and rules using the govt to achieve that. Just b/c you may not agree with someone's "morals" or "convictions" doesn't mean they don't have any and it doesn't give you the right to tell others how to live. And this is what I don't get, what gives you the right to tell others how to live?

As far as this debate goes I'm waving the "white" flag because I think I've said all I can say on the subject. This fight will flare up again maybe things will be differnent or maybe not. But as long as we keep it above the name calling it is always a better discussion.

You've said all you WANTED to say. I asked these basic fundamental questions that people refuse to answer and honestly I just cannot believe how many people say things that they can't actually explain or back up. It's easy to avoid the hard questions and ignore what you don't want to answer online. I don't get what it is about some "conservatives" who say things they cannot back up or explain and just continually use some cop out excuse about personal "convictions" or "morals" to not actually answer a basic fundamental question.

I just think if you're going to say or claim something then be prepared to at least back it up and explain it. And if you can't then think about why you can't. I guess I'll never really get an explanation or answers to my basic fundamental questions about this issue. Anyways don't take it personally, you're actually one of the only ones who even attempted to even answer my questions and that is why I kept grilling you on it.