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San Francisco homeless population: 7500
San Francisco city population: 870,000
% of total population that is homeless: .0086
So you tell the readers how .0086% of the population has overrun 870,000 residents in 47 square miles. Go ahead. We’re on the edge of of chairs ...
It's 0.86 percent, not 0.0086 percent. So nearly 1 percent of the city is homeless. Most non-homeless people are not outdoors at any given time, so the percentage of the outdoor population that is homeless is substantially more. Anyhow, 7500 people can cause a lot of problems.
You may have been “all over” ... but you clearly haven’t been “all over” San Francisco, because by far the City is not infested by the homeless and associated detritus ... probably in excess of 90% of the City’s area is unaffected.
That said, some of the prime tourist and civic areas are, regrettably, among the hardest hit. This the source of the bad press and reputation.
You know, the site linked me to a 3 year old thread where the same characters, yourself included, were arguing and you were giving the same spiel as you are now. You know perfectly well that the situation is not confined to just less than 10 percent of the city. On one of these other threads you were talking about how nice the Marina district people were who lived in their vehicles. Presumably the Marina is not in this < 10 percent in your mind. But I have personally seen, with my own eyes, a homeless person go from car to car trying to break in on Marina Boulevard. Yes, it's not as bad as downtown but the issue is all over, just in differing levels of severity. Golden Gate Park has hundreds. The smaller parks have encampments too. And they move around.
Note I'm not trying to put them down, but it seems like you live on this forum and try to minimize the scope of the problem and portray the cause as housing costs in the city. You've seen the youtube video of the BART station with all the junkies shooting up. This isn't about housing costs. Thousands of needles all over the place. High rents don't cause this.
It's 0.86 percent, not 0.0086 percent. So nearly 1 percent of the city is homeless. Most non-homeless people are not outdoors at any given time, so the percentage of the outdoor population that is homeless is substantially more. Anyhow, 7500 people can cause a lot of problems.
Yes, you are correct. I misapplied the decimal point. The correct representation is .86 of one %. More than ¾% ... less than 1%. And yes, 7500 people can - and do - cause a LOT of problems. Never suggested otherwise. What I am pointing out, however, is that 99.14% is an enormous majority, and in no way held hostage by .86%.
Glad you brought up the point about who are outdoors at any given time. Because, while SF does a pi** poor job of providing shelter for its homeless population compared with many other cities, over 3,000 of its estimated 7500 population ARE sheltered, and thus NOT on the streets “at any given time” ... thus changing your assessment of relative positions.
You know, the site linked me to a 3 year old thread where the same characters, yourself included, were arguing and you were giving the same spiel as you are now.
Yes. And your reason for citing this is? I believe I wrote previously in this thread a comment about my background interest in homeless issues, right? It is one of a few topics that I am particularly motivated to participate in with regard to myth busting. I have a terrific sense of humor in general ... but admit not finding much about homelessness at all funny. You note I am consistent, as well. Why wouldn’t I be?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genghis
You know perfectly well that the situation is not confined to just less than 10 percent of the city. On one of these other threads you were talking about how nice the Marina district people were who lived in their vehicles. Presumably the Marina is not in this < 10 percent in your mind. But I have personally seen, with my own eyes, a homeless person go from car to car trying to break in on Marina Boulevard. Yes, it's not as bad as downtown but the issue is all over, just in differing levels of severity. Golden Gate Park has hundreds. The smaller parks have encampments too. And they move around.
No, I don’t know the “situation” isn’t confined to less than 10% of the City. I acknowledge that homeless people can be found widely, here and there. That’s true of towns and cities all across the nation and always has been the case. Hobos, bums, transients ... whatever name you want to apply, have always wandered and lurked and traveled freely everywhere.
The “situation” as we are discussing it, is the gross impact of large numbers and encampments blocking sidewalks and confronting passersby with aggressive panhandling and other displays of mental illness and intoxications, etc. That “situation” does NOT infest the majority of neighborhoods. Unfortunately for the City’s reputation, it DOES negatively impact tourism.
As for what you’ve personally seen in the Marina District, or elsewhere, so what? As I keep pointing out: your individual anecdotal observations don’t constitute any scientific summary, let alone equate to a factual research study. I once witnessed a guy flip off his motorcycle right in front of me on the Bay bridge and get run over, killed. Years before I witnessed another guy ejected out of his car on the Bay bridge after losing control in the rain and hitting the curb, then was also run over by a bus. Now, should we make assumptions that the Bay bridge is a death trap because tulemutt witnessed these accidents? Or do similar accidents happen all the time all kinds of places?
There certainly are a number of homeless in the Marina district, and some of them will definitely steal from your unlocked car given opportunity. That behavior happens in neighborhoods everywhere in the nation regardless of homelessness. Neighborhood kids steal. Employed persons steal. Retired persons steal. Bankers steal. Cops steal. Politicians steal. All housed. Crime is crime whoever does it. Lock your car is my advice, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genghis
Note I'm not trying to put them down, but it seems like you live on this forum and try to minimize the scope of the problem and portray the cause as housing costs in the city. You've seen the youtube video of the BART station with all the junkies shooting up. This isn't about housing costs. Thousands of needles all over the place. High rents don't cause this.
I’m not trying to minimize at all. I am committed to accurately portraying the situation ... because myths are destructive and counterproductive.
Yes, I know about BART junkies. And the “situation” IS very connected to housing costs, as any and every social scientist and economist will concur. High rents very much contribute to people giving up and turning to drugs after being forced out of their homes, whatever the reasons for their failures to compete in gentrifying society.
And, especially, perpetuation of myths as you are doing results in dangerous escalations of violence as well as interfering with problem solving that requires educated community support.
Quote:
No Safe Street: A Survey of Violence Committed against Homeless People a new report published by the National Coalition for the Homeless finds that over the last 17 years, at least 1,657 people experiencing homelessness have been the victims of violence perpetrated for the sole reason that they were unhoused at the time. This number includes 428 men and women who lost their lives for being homeless, and in the wrong place at the wrong time.
It is easy to see a correlation between the appearance of laws criminalizing homelessness, and the increase of hate crimes or violent acts against homeless people. A 2014 report from the National Law Center on Homelessness and Poverty found that out of 187 cities that have enacted some type of law criminalizing daily activities often carried out by people without stable housing, 21 cities were located in California (11%) and 17 were in Florida (9%). No Safe Street finds that out of 199 attacks against homeless persons in 2014-2015, the largest share of incidents took place in California (43 attacks) and Florida (18 attacks).
One possible explanation for this is the message that criminalizing homelessness sends to the general public: “Homeless people do not matter and are not worthy of living in our city.” This message is blatant in the attitudes many cities have toward homeless people and can be used as an internal justification for attacking someone.
No Safe Street cites more than double the number of fatalities from bias motivated violence against people who are homeless than the FBI has tracked for all federally protected classes combined. Professor of Criminal Justice at California State University San Bernardino, Brian Levin, finds that “the characteristics of bias attacks against the homeless are very similar to that of hate crime in general. As with other hate crimes, offenders fit a pattern: typically, young male “thrill offenders” acting on stereotypes, seeking excitement and peer validation.”
I’m not trying to minimize at all. I am committed to accurately portraying the situation ... because myths are destructive and counterproductive.
Yes, I know about BART junkies. And the “situation” IS very connected to housing costs, as any and every social scientist and economist will concur. High rents very much contribute to people giving up and turning to drugs after being forced out of their homes, whatever the reasons for their failures to compete in gentrifying society.
And, especially, perpetuation of myths as you are doing results in dangerous escalations of violence as well as interfering with problem solving that requires educated community support.
Again, you defy common sense. Do you seriously believe that homelessness more commonly causes substance abuse than vice versa? Is it even close to 50/50? Come on. And please don't throw any "official" statistics at me.
I really don't think anything I have said would encourage violence against the homeless. And I think living in a dream world where more affordable housing would somehow end this problem does interfere with solving it. This what San Francisco has been doing: housing the homeless and sending them to other cities. And the result: nothing has changed. Maybe it's time for the people in charge to ask themselves if their preconceived notions on homelessness are as correct as they think. Maybe the official statistics are not correct.
Again, you defy common sense. Do you seriously believe that homelessness more commonly causes substance abuse than vice versa? Is it even close to 50/50? Come on. And please don't throw any "official" statistics at me.
I really don't think anything I have said would encourage violence against the homeless. And I think living in a dream world where more affordable housing would somehow end this problem does interfere with solving it. This what San Francisco has been doing: housing the homeless and sending them to other cities. And the result: nothing has changed. Maybe it's time for the people in charge to ask themselves if their preconceived notions on homelessness are as correct as they think. Maybe the official statistics are not correct.
lmfao! Sorry, man ... but what you just wrote is too funny ...
Define “common sense” ... and, if you won’t consider official statistics then what’s the point in having a conversation ... unless it’s just to campaign your biases? Gawd amighty bro! That’s hilarious.
San Francisco has housed some homeless, but done poorly compared to many other places ... and ALL cities bus homeless out similarly. So neither of those points are unique ... furthermore, the only places where the ratios of homelessness are improving are places with the most ‘Housing First’ programs. “Nothing has changed”, only gotten worse, where people think as you do. You refuse to even assess and acknowledge scientific research. How are you on climate change? Lol. Nevermind.
You perpetuate myths: you create the environment for failure and abuse.
Liberal statistics in the face of the truth! Only the liberal faithful believe in that BS..
Nobody's buying the liberal BS- they made the mess and they won't fix it.. about a year of and national guard presence will do it... looks like another liberal mess in Chicago getting worse this weekend..you can't be out doing awful stuff anymore-- we have a nice, fenced location for you.
the liberals can type and try and convince themselves even more... they will watch the conservatives fix this just like they watched Trump get elected.. they were wrong then, they always will be... the left are desperate and frustrated that nobody listens at all to their pro crime crap... its over for the left- yep its happening in CA and other one- left wing cities too!! we are taking our country back.. with or without you... it what is happening. We have seen all we need to see and experienced all we need to experience- the left will never have any way to the needy off the street- obviously! They have nothing to add or do about it- the good people of the country know what needs to be done...
They can pout and huff and type all they want-- THIS is what is happening and they can't stop it......in what was once obamaland!
This is happening--Trump is going into Chicago and lets hope rahm goes to prison where he belongs.. there is hope or SF ! 'Let's Do It Like Eisenhower': Chicago Pastor Calls on Trump to Send Troops, If Needed, to Violent City | Fox News Insider
Liberal statistics in the face of the truth! Only the liberal faithful believe in that BS..
Nobody's buying the liberal BS- they made the mess and they won't fix it.. about a year of and national guard presence will do it... looks like another liberal mess in Chicago getting worse this weekend..you can't be out doing awful stuff anymore-- we have a nice, fenced location for you.
the liberals can type and try and convince themselves even more... they will watch the conservatives fix this just like they watched Trump get elected.. they were wrong then, they always will be... the left are desperate and frustrated that nobody listens at all to their pro crime crap... its over for the left- yep its happening in CA and other one- left wing cities too!! we are taking our country back.. with or without you... it what is happening. We have seen all we need to see and experienced all we need to experience- the left will never have any way to the needy off the street- obviously! They have nothing to add or do about it- the good people of the country know what needs to be done...
They can pout and huff and type all they want-- THIS is what is happening and they can't stop it......in what was once obamaland!
This is happening--Trump is going into Chicago and lets hope rahm goes to prison where he belongs.. there is hope or SF ! 'Let's Do It Like Eisenhower': Chicago Pastor Calls on Trump to Send Troops, If Needed, to Violent City | Fox News Insider
lmfao! Sorry, man ... but what you just wrote is too funny ...
Define “common sense” ... and, if you won’t consider official statistics then what’s the point in having a conversation ... unless it’s just to campaign your biases? Gawd amighty bro! That’s hilarious.
San Francisco has housed some homeless, but done poorly compared to many other places ... and ALL cities bus homeless out similarly. So neither of those points are unique ... furthermore, the only places where the ratios of homelessness are improving are places with the most ‘Housing First’ programs. “Nothing has changed”, only gotten worse, where people think as you do. You refuse to even assess and acknowledge scientific research. How are you on climate change? Lol. Nevermind.
You perpetuate myths: you create the environment for failure and abuse.
Have a nice day.
I'll say it before and I'll say it again, I don't have the "official statistics" given by the other side on this issue, nor can I look through the data you mention. So I can't judge for myself whose statistics to believe, if any. But when you say something that flies in the face of my own experience, and general common sense, I will choose to not believe your statistics. It is simply not credible to think that homelessness causes substance abuse more than vice-versa, given their own stories that I have seen, and everyone's experiences.
Climate change is something easily observed. You can just plot the average temperature with respect to time. Unless there's a vast conspiracy amongst weather data recorders, global temperatures are going up. With respect to sociological questions on a population that's hard to find, it's not as easy. In addition, in sociology there is a big issue with nonreplicability of scientific results, and even fraud. It's not as simple as plotting weather data. Research can be wrong. Especially when human emotions are involved.
I don't create the environment for failure and abuse. I want the problem of homelessness to be solved. I would never consider harming a homeless person. But I think one needs to be flexible and open-minded, when the methods that have been used to date have not worked. One should be open to the possibility that one's preconceived beliefs are not correct, and not take sociological research results as gospel.
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