A friend just visited San Francisco and the main thing that left a lasting impression was...yeah, you guessed it... (Berkeley: employment, safe neighborhoods)
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OK, I see your point. I certainly do agree that many who live on the streets need a push. But I don't think criminalizing homelessness alone is enough. It's a combination of carrot and stick. California is too lax. There's no question about that. But I just don't think "law and order" alone is compassionate in the same what that I don't think California's policy of "let them do (almost) whatever they want" is compassionate.
It's not making homelessness a crime. It's making everyone who lives in society realize that they can't just take over public land for their personal use how they see fit.
That's not making homelessness a crime...it's keeping cities safe and clean. If a person want's to be homeless then by all means they can go knock themselves out doing just that. However this does not give them the right to set up tents on public property as living quarters.
Yes CA is dysfunctional laxed and we see the problems this has created.
Law and order is about being compassionate for people who live in cities. Preserving peoples personal freedoms to be able to walk down the street or enjoy a public park or space without threats or encountering bio-hazardous conditions.
I am a proponent of supportive housing. I do think it works (or at least, it can work, as Utah has shown). But I also think there is a law enforcement aspect as well. It has to be both.
I agree, but several courts and DOJ have ruled that you can't arrest people for sleeping in public unless you can offer them shelter space, so communities that can't or won't build housing or at least shelters are stuck between a rock and a hard place. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.df8a4dd09fcb
I’m curious if you could direct me and other readers to where anyone suggested homeless should be free from common sense laws.
LOL you must not pay attention much in these homeless threads. You will find numerous posters who think they have the right to sleep on sidewalks and in parks and set up living quarters on public land.
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Originally Posted by Tulemutt
And yes, do look up the costs of not housing the chronic homeless compared to the cost of housing them. Absolutely. Because they can be housed for less than we spend now leaving them on the streets.
I could care less how much it costs either way. That does not make it ok to expect they be provided free housing and all the necessities to live comfortably for the rest of their lives.
If people can't figure out or put forth the effort to provide for themselves then why should they be entitled to a free ride? I am strictly speaking about those who are of sound mind and body.
If I just decided to throw my life away, stop working, stop paying rent and get on drugs. I certainly would not expect a free ride in this life for making those choices. I'm a big girl and it's up to me to take care of myself in this life. If I fail to do this than I will face reaping what I sowed. That's just the way the world works Mutt.
LOL you must not pay attention much in these homeless threads. You will find numerous posters who think they have the right to sleep on sidewalks and in parks and set up living quarters on public land.
As you know, I join in on nearly all the homelessness threads. In fact I have next to no interest in other threads anymore ... just these homelessness ones. So, I asked you to point to where anyone - specifically in this thread ... but quotes from other threads would be interesting too - has written the homeless have the right to “be free of common sense laws”. I didn’t ask about the right to sleep on the sidewalk ... that is a default behavior in absence of shelter. You declared that people here have said “homeless should be free of common sense laws”. I am asking to see where that has been supported.
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Originally Posted by Matadora
I could care less how much it costs either way. That does not make it ok to expect they be provided free housing and all the necessities to live comfortably for the rest of their lives.
If people can't figure out or put forth the effort to provide for themselves then why should they be entitled to a free ride? I am strictly speaking about those who are of sound mind and body.
If I just decided to throw my life away, stop working, stop paying rent and get on drugs. I certainly would not expect a free ride in this life for making those choices. I'm a big girl and it's up to me to take care of myself in this life. If I fail to do this than I will face reaping what I sowed. That's just the way the world works Mutt.
Yeah. Anyone reading you posts can see you don’t care about costs or solutions. Except your fantasy solutions that all the homeless will conform to your vision of how the world works.
So now, in addition to saying people have endorsed the idea that homeless should be free from conformation to common sense laws, now you are suggesting people have argued homeless should be “entitled to a free ride”? While you are looking for any quotes on freedom from “common sense laws”, would you also look for, and quote for us, anywhere that posters have argued “entitlements” for the homeless?
Thanks.
Because, while some here observe that the homeless need to be housed and receive services - for the obvious purpose of getting them off the streets and out of our ways ... you know, to solve the problem for US general, housed population who have to step over and around the homeless - no one that I recall has referred to “entitlement”. They’re not “entitled” to help. WE, the rest of us, are entitled to being free of their disruptions ... and the only way to get free of the problems they leave the rest of us to deal with is to house them out of our ways and provide necessary services to manage their disruptive behaviors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matadora
That's just the way the world works Mutt.
Well actually, Matadora, your way is apparently NOT the way the world works ... as we all can see. They’re here right in your face, not living up to the standards you say are how the world works.
Righteousness and condescending superciliousness doesn’t solve problems. Learning and understanding situational realities and creating and implementing effective strategies solve problems.
America is changing with Trump. It wouldn't be surprising if homelessness becomes a crime in the near future.
Every one thought Trump couldn't win. So, they stayed home and didn't vote.
Trump/Pence is surely changing the face of America bit by bit. A new conservative SCOTUS justice will soon be sworn in. States will get more and more power as a result. And pretty soon, they will make homelessness illegal in many Red States.
Things are getting seriously concerning in the United States. I fear for our great nation.
Some aspects of Evangelical Protestantism will become the law of the land. We will have a low-key theocracy.
I was homeless for a short period in 1972 in Denver, and back then, it was a piece of cake to transfer from homelessness to employment. It simply can't be done today, too many obstacles in their way.
In 1972 I applied for the lowliest job I could find, working as a nursing assistant (then called being an Orderly) in a nursing home and started working the next day, as a trainee with another nursing assistant, and after a week I had my own hall of patients to tend to.
Back then, as opposed to today, I didn't need to go to CNA school to be certified, I didn't need a CPR card, no background checks, no fingerprinting, no TB test and no experience needed. Today, even if you get your CNA license, these facilities are oftentimes asking for a year's experience.
And it's not much different in other fields, even fast food. In Las Vegas you need to bear the expense of getting a Health Card just to work at McDonald's. And do the homeless have that kind of money?
You certainly don't need to spend $14k to go through Massage school to give a massage, you can learn massage from DVD's and books and practicing on others.
So if you want to decrease the rolls of the homeless, shift the blame, and remove some of those obstacles!
I was homeless for a short period in 1972 in Denver, and back then, it was a piece of cake to transfer from homelessness to employment. It simply can't be done today, too many obstacles in their way.
In 1972 I applied for the lowliest job I could find, working as a nursing assistant (then called being an Orderly) in a nursing home and started working the next day, as a trainee with another nursing assistant, and after a week I had my own hall of patients to tend to.
Back then, as opposed to today, I didn't need to go to CNA school to be certified, I didn't need a CPR card, no background checks, no fingerprinting, no TB test and no experience needed. Today, even if you get your CNA license, these facilities are oftentimes asking for a year's experience.
And it's not much different in other fields, even fast food. In Las Vegas you need to bear the expense of getting a Health Card just to work at McDonald's. And do the homeless have that kind of money?
You certainly don't need to spend $14k to go through Massage school to give a massage, you can learn massage from DVD's and books and practicing on others.
So if you want to decrease the rolls of the homeless, shift the blame, and remove some of those obstacles!
Exactly..not to mention that one of the reasons some people are homeless is because they have a criminal history and can't rent an apartment or even a room because so many landlords are requiring background checks. Now even temp agencies are refusing to hire people with any criminal convictions so what are their options? Other people don't have an ID or money to get one, clean clothes for an interview or a guarantee of a shelter bed to sleep in the night before the interview. Most of the homeless can get a free phone, but where do they charge it? When's the last time you saw an open electrical outlet in a fast food restaurant or any other public place?
If this were Japan, these homeless people would be working, as there's a chronic shortage of workers, with 1.26 applicants per job. Over there, they can't afford to be fussy, install obstacles.
If this were Japan, these homeless people would be working, as there's a chronic shortage of workers, with 1.26 applicants per job. Over there, they can't afford to be fussy, install obstacles.
Years ago a few Berkeley business owners hired homeless people to keep the sidewalks cleared and clean in front of their businesses, the homeless took great pride in keeping their assigned area cleaner than anyone else's. I wonder if something like that could work on a larger scale?
As you know, I join in on nearly all the homelessness threads. In fact I have next to no interest in other threads anymore ... just these homelessness ones. So, I asked you to point to where anyone - specifically in this thread ... but quotes from other threads would be interesting too - has written the homeless have the right to “be free of common sense laws”.
Not interested in your game or doing the leg work of pouring through pages and pages of this thread to point out the bleeding heart mentalities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt
I didn’t ask about the right to sleep on the sidewalk ... that is a default behavior in absence of shelter. You declared that people here have said “homeless should be free of common sense laws”. I am asking to see where that has been supported.
Not setting up living quarters on public land including sidewalks is a basic common sense law in any civilized society.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt
Yeah. Anyone reading you posts can see you don’t care about costs or solutions. Except your fantasy solutions that all the homeless will conform to your vision of how the world works.
LOL this is only your narrow perspective on my posts. I don't care to hear your excuses on how much it costs as I can see how much money is being wasted cleaning up the homeless filth. Repairing the damage they continuously do, decontaminate their waste etc.
If a city such as Houston that has NO State Income Tax can host a clean DT and keep tent cities from springing up all over public land and sidewalks why can't a city such as SF that has tons of money in a state with one of the highest State Income Taxes in the US get it together? It's clear that money is not the issue when SF can flush millions down the drain yearly cleaning up the destruction and bio-hazardous mess the homeless create.
How is a city like Houston (no state income tax) tackling the homeless mess?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt
So now, in addition to saying people have endorsed the idea that homeless should be free from conformation to common sense laws, now you are suggesting people have argued homeless should be “entitled to a free ride”? While you are looking for any quotes on freedom from “common sense laws”, would you also look for, and quote for us, anywhere that posters have argued “entitlements” for the homeless?
Not wasting my time looking for those bleeding heart posts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt
Because, while some here observe that the homeless need to be housed and receive services - for the obvious purpose of getting them off the streets and out of our ways ... you know, to solve the problem for US general, housed population who have to step over and around the homeless - no one that I recall has referred to “entitlement”.
Or they can do what I see a lot of homeless folks doing. Which is not being a burden on society. They pack a light backpack and roll-up bedding. They don't set up permanent living quarters on public land or create the wasteland we see in our faces everyday here in the Bay Area.
BTW I don't have to step over the homeless. I only have to pass by their stinking nasty camps on the wetlands where they have cut a huge hole in the fence to drag their crap through and pile high. Or see their camps full of trash that cover the grass killing it. Or see their in your face bike chop shops with hundreds of bike frames, tires and rims all lined up like your at a grocery store. Or see them dazed and confused screaming and cussing at ghosts. Or see them stealing from our front porches. Seeing the fire damage to bridges due to them starting fires. Seeing the filth along the shoulders of the freeway where homeless camps are. Stepping around them does not bother me...all that I listed above does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt
They’re not “entitled” to help. WE, the rest of us, are entitled to being free of their disruptions ... and the only way to get free of the problems they leave the rest of us to deal with is to house them out of our ways and provide necessary services to manage their disruptive behaviors.
This is total and utter BS! Homeless folks exist in DT Houston. You don't see those behaviors in Houston. So we don't HAVE to house them. They can pack up each morning and do whatever the heck they do all day and at night go find a quite place to sleep down by the bayou. In the morning pack up, clean up your mess and carry on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt
Well actually, Matadora, your way is apparently NOT the way the world works ... as we all can see.
LOL yep it is how the world works. The US has 327 Million folks and aprox .5 Million are homeless. Do the math.
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Originally Posted by Tulemutt
They’re here right in your face, not living up to the standards you say are how the world works.
Yes they are living up to my standards of what you see when you are dealing with folks who have dropped out of life, who have made poor decisions that they can't recover from, who choose to live an over the top drugged out existence vs. getting a job and supporting themselves. Yep what you see here in the Bay Area is exactly what you get when you just ignore it and the cops ignore it and everyone becomes complacent at looking at it everyday.
Instead of simply quote mining me let me repeat: If I just decided to throw my life away, stop working, stop paying rent and get on drugs. I certainly would not expect a free ride in this life for making those choices. I certainly would not trash the land or destroy public property or become a burden on society. I'm a big girl and it's up to me to take care of myself in this life. If I fail to do this than I will face reaping what I sowed, that's just the way the world works Mutt!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt
Righteousness and condescending superciliousness doesn’t solve problems. Learning and understanding situational realities and creating and implementing effective strategies solve problems.
I suppose you will just have to take this up with the person you are ascribing all of these positions to.
Last edited by Matadora; 06-27-2018 at 08:35 PM..
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