Glaciers in Washington's Olympic Mountains will be gone by 2070, study concludes (homes, university)

[Ruth4Truth]

Originally Posted by MechAndy

I live in logging country.
I can see 6-8 previously logged areas from by backyard view and an 80 acre patch near our other side.
I have never seen selective thinning here in this area or goats that are used strictly for foliage.

I could be wrong, didn’t the lumber industry lobby and win for clear cut to make more money?
Back in CA I see several herds of goats in the Bay Area that are contracted for foliage removal.
Here I haven’t seen one such herd.

Just my observations.

Oh yeah,
I drive between WA and CA every 5-6 weeks.
When I see Lake Shasta 75-90 feet low and the marinas and boat launches where they shouldn’t be I know there will be a fire season.
This is happening more and more.

40-50 years ago when I was a kid most all the lakes in CA had water up to the tree line.
I can’t remember the last time I saw that but I’ll blame that on policy.

Selective thinning is too expensive for the timber corporations. That's why you're seeing clear-cutting. Selective thinning is something the Forest Service should be doing, but it's seen its budget cut under several Presidents. In addition, firefighting has required a growing percentage of its budget, to the point, that preventive measures like thinning have been severely limited.

Here's all I could find in a quick search of Biden's budget for the Forest Service. (Mar. 28, 2022 article)

The National Forest Service would get 3,586 more workers, a 25% boost, to oversee the nation's 193 million acres (78,104,329 hectares) of protected forests and grassland - in particular to fight illegal marijuana growing operations. The service would also get 3,253 more employees to fight forest fires, a 24% increase.

[rjshae]

Originally Posted by MechAndy

I live in logging country.
I can see 6-8 previously logged areas from by backyard view and an 80 acre patch near our other side.
I have never seen selective thinning here in this area or goats that are used strictly for foliage.

I could be wrong, didn’t the lumber industry lobby and win for clear cut to make more money?
Back in CA I see several herds of goats in the Bay Area that are contracted for foliage removal.
Here I haven’t seen one such herd.

Just my observations.

Oh yeah,
I drive between WA and CA every 5-6 weeks.
When I see Lake Shasta 75-90 feet low and the marinas and boat launches where they shouldn’t be I know there will be a fire season.
This is happening more and more.

40-50 years ago when I was a kid most all the lakes in CA had water up to the tree line.
I can’t remember the last time I saw that but I’ll blame that on policy.

I think the goat approach is just getting started. It is being used on a small scale in Seattle, but needs to be scaled up quite a bit.

Rent a Ruminant LLC
Local goat herd draws a crowd while clearing lot in Seattle

[Diana Holbrook]

Originally Posted by MechAndy

I live in logging country.
I can see 6-8 previously logged areas from by backyard view and an 80 acre patch near our other side.
I have never seen selective thinning here in this area or goats that are used strictly for foliage.

I could be wrong, didn’t the lumber industry lobby and win for clear cut to make more money?
Back in CA I see several herds of goats in the Bay Area that are contracted for foliage removal.
Here I haven’t seen one such herd.

You won't see thinning operations from a distance. Thinning isn't logging, it's when they go through when the trees are 10-20 years in and thin the trees to a healthy spacing to allow for better growth. Selective logging within a forest would not allow for successful replanting at the scale they can with clear cutting. New trees don't grow up through a dark canopy. It's a management tool, not a way to maintain sustainable forest renewal.

Goats are not used in timber management, they are a small acreage suburban solution. Timber is managed in hundreds or thousands of acres. Bringing in goats would just be a coyote and cougar feeding program.

"Clear" cutting sections of forest is best for timber management, wildlife habitat, and fire. A patchwork of variable age timber, with mature and young and half-grown areas provides more efficient clearing and replanting, creates a wide variety of forage, and most closely mimics what you might see in a natural area with small fires that happen periodically.

Just my observations.

[MechAndy]

I love seeing goat herds doing their foliage abatement thing in suburban and even urban locations in CA.
They normally are used against tall grass hilly areas near roadways.

In my WA neighborhood they drive this tractor chinga thing around with a custom knuckle boom that has a bunch of blades that can cut multiple angles.
Hard to beat that rig for efficiency.

Our resident goat owner here knows way more about this than I do.

[Diana Holbrook]

Originally Posted by MechAndy

I love seeing goat herds doing their foliage abatement thing in suburban and even urban locations in CA.
They normally are used against tall grass hilly areas near roadways.

In my WA neighborhood they drive this tractor chinga thing around with a custom knuckle boom that has a bunch of blades that can cut multiple angles.
Hard to beat that rig for efficiency.

Our resident goat owner here knows way more about this than I do.

I wish I could get one of those tractor mounted side mower thingies to come down our road.

Goats might work if you have a lot of patience and time.... machines are a heck of a lot faster.

[Racer46]

Originally Posted by Diana Holbrook

I wish I could get one of those tractor mounted side mower thingies to come down our road.

Goats might work if you have a lot of patience and time.... machines are a heck of a lot faster.

Well goats also fertilize and ... a tractor won't.

[Diana Holbrook]

Originally Posted by Racer46

Well goats also fertilize and ... a tractor won't.

Indeed... though that's not a precision operation either. You really never know where it's going to end up.

[rjshae]

Okay so here's some data: a herd of 200 goats can clear an acre per day. It sounds like they are gaining increasing use in Calfornia to clear firebreaks around communities. People seem to like them because they do their job quietly, unlike machinery, and are relatively cheap.

[Diana Holbrook]

Originally Posted by rjshae

Okay so here's some data: a herd of 200 goats can clear an acre per day. It sounds like they are gaining increasing use in Calfornia to clear firebreaks around communities. People seem to like them because they do their job quietly, unlike machinery, and are relatively cheap.

So many problems with using them in timber land. For starters, they'll eat the bark and kill the trees. Ask me how I know. Brush control yes, if you don't care what gets eaten. Timber no.

And Western Washington really doesn't need brush control in the understory for fire suppression. Our timberlands rarely have large burns. Maybe some in Eastern WA pine forest. But goats seem like a cute but impractical idea to me.

[rjshae]

Originally Posted by Diana Holbrook

So many problems with using them in timber land. For starters, they'll eat the bark and kill the trees. Ask me how I know. Brush control yes, if you don't care what gets eaten. Timber no.

And Western Washington really doesn't need brush control in the understory for fire suppression. Our timberlands rarely have large burns. Maybe some in Eastern WA pine forest. But goats seem like a cute but impractical idea to me.

Yes, they may be more optimal for areas featuring extensive grasslands.