Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Unless this is middle school or lower, teaching with "very little lecture" is doing students a disservice in CP or higher classes. The vast majority of college courses are still taught by lecture and not just 45 mins of lecture but rather 3 hrs.
Additionally, some high school course just do not lend themselves to anything but lecture. With the exception of labs (which at best take up 25% of time) CP and higher chemistry and physics consist almost entirely of the teacher lecturing with some small amount of problem solving thrown in.
While college courses are often taught by long (and often boring) lectures, I disagree that this is a good way for college students to learn.
I like this essay:
College Lectures: Is Anybody Listening (http://www.wodejia.org/view/agl3b2RlamlhcHVyCwsSBFRleHQY7w8M.html - broken link)
Often lectures just repeat what I could easily read in the text.
Since you teach Chemistry, you might be interested in this article:
The importance of lecture in general chemistry course performance
James P. Birk and John Foster
J. Chem. Educ., 1993, 70 (3), p 180
DOI: 10.1021/ed070p180
Publication Date: March 1993
In this case, the teacher is frustrated. Things already are not going well. It's time for the teacher to back off, not attack. He can think it through when he's calmer and try something different the next day/class.
Why is he frustrated? Because the students (plural) are not paying attention. So this is the problem that needs to be addressed. Is it because they don't care about school? Is it because they don't understand the subject and have given up? Is it because no one has ever held them accountable? Is it because they want the teacher to entertain him and he doesn't?
And why is this student sleeping? Is it because he is trying to be disrespectful? He stayed up too late playing video games? He was studying late last night after getting home from work? There's too much commotion at his house? He's on drugs? He hasn't had breakfast? He usually has an energy drink before class but ran out of them? He isn't sleeping well because he has sleep apnea? Does the teacher know what the problem is? Does the teacher care?
When the teacher, out of his own frustration, uses this student to "teach the others a lesson," he is not trying to do what's best for the class. He's reacting out of his own anger. Whether or not the kid "deserves it," this kid and the other kids will perceive it as unfair, they will see that the teacher does not have self-control and does not care about them, and they will not respect that teacher. It's not going to be easy to get those kids back.
Being a good teacher is difficult and stressful. Not everyone can handle it.
It isn't the teacher's job to care about the teens or why they are sleeping in class. It's their job to teach them. It isn't daycare. By the time they get to college, profs won't care whether or not they sleep. You pay for their knowledge, not for their time to watch Junior. They sleep, they fail and waste all that money.
I think the teacher is absolutely right to take that approach. It would behoove the students to pay attention so they don't get embarrassed rather than the teacher having to worry about why poor Johnny is fast asleep in class.
It doesn't matter WHY the student is asleep. When students have jobs, do they sleep? No, or they would be fired. In the real world employers don't put up with people sleeping no matter what the reason. High school is immediately before or during first jobs. It's irresponsible for students to think they can sleep during class.
Maybe if they are embarrassed enough, they will pay attention.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliTerp07
What the teacher did wasn't wrong, necessarily. But there were better, more effective alternatives to consider next time. (Ones that won't create a "student vs. teacher" mentality)
If the teacher is consistent with his method, it is effective. No other alternatives are necessary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053
While I agree that there are some engaging lecturers, it is not the best way for students to learn.
Remember the old saw: I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand.
For most students, this is very true.
While you do need some direct instruction, if the kids don't actually practice the skills, they will not remember them. And if they don't explore the concepts actively, they will generally not understand them.
There are a lot of subjects (history, for example) that lectures are necessary. In college it will be necessary for the students to pay attention no matter why they are tired. It's their job to pay attention. Coddling the student and leading them by the nose is not effective because the student has nothing invested, the teacher is doing all the work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714
Unless this is middle school or lower, teaching with "very little lecture" is doing students a disservice in CP or higher classes. The vast majority of college courses are still taught by lecture and not just 45 mins of lecture but rather 3 hrs.
Additionally, some high school course just do not lend themselves to anything but lecture. With the exception of labs (which at best take up 25% of time) CP and higher chemistry and physics consist almost entirely of the teacher lecturing with some small amount of problem solving thrown in.
Exactly.
Our labs were never included in class time in college. They were scheduled seperately from class.
I agree completely with the teacher. By the time students are in high school, they shouldn't have their hands held. In fact, school isn't the place for handholding at any age.
When they are taught from the beginning to be responsible and accountable for their work, they wouldn't be sleeping in the first place.
While college courses are often taught by long (and often boring) lectures, I disagree that this is a good way for college students to learn.
I like this essay:
College Lectures: Is Anybody Listening (http://www.wodejia.org/view/agl3b2RlamlhcHVyCwsSBFRleHQY7w8M.html - broken link)
Often lectures just repeat what I could easily read in the text.
Since you teach Chemistry, you might be interested in this article:
The importance of lecture in general chemistry course performance
James P. Birk and John Foster
J. Chem. Educ., 1993, 70 (3), p 180
DOI: 10.1021/ed070p180
Publication Date: March 1993
Dorothy
As a scientist (not even as an educator) I find that "study" to be flawed on several levels. Even ignoring sample size, and lack of testing for other variables I found their bias against lecture telling in and of itself.
From the results section"
"While we have not vet investigated the efficacv of other ways of using lecture time, we believe these studies provide a license for change"
Despite finding that those who attended better did significantly better in the course!!
"The higher scores by students who attended lecture, though the differences are small, are statistically significant and may, in fact, be a result of attendance at lecture."
Their findings did not support their suggestions at all. In fact all they figured out was that those who go to class are better students. Shocking.
When I taught first year law students, I wouldn't ask a daydreaming or sleepy student what I just said, I called on them to answer a series of questions on the issues I was talking about. The old fashioned Socratic Method works. Some profs would hand out a "calling on" schedule or go in alphabetical order, not me.
If a cellphone rang during my lecture, I would send the student out into the hallway to take the call because obviously, the student and their parents MUST be paying their pals more than they are paying me. Then they'd get called on if or when they returned.
It's interesting to see responses that say the teacher is disrespecting the student but not much about the disrespect the student is showing by sleeping in class. Maybe the instructor has sleepless nights because of an infant or other issue but they came prepared and forged through no matter how tired they were.
At the college level, I would not kick the chair or bolt them awake an embarrass them but I would tap them and then speak to them after class to see what the deal is. If they have a job after school or childcare issues that keep them up late at night, I'd try to find alternative methods for them such as having the lecture recorded and providing an audio DVD on which they would be quizzed. At this point, these are adults, some with quite a few adult responsibilities in addition to possibly not getting proper nourishment.
At the high school level, I would think that hanging out, playing video games, staying up late, senioritis, etc., is the cause of the sleeping in class and I'd have a word with the parents about it and tell them that their teen risks failing the class because I will not rehash prior lectures for someone who slept through my class.
This of course has its own potential problems as the parents will more than likely want me to work around the issue by providing a recording or text copy of the lecture so they can catch up. I would not do this but would ask for a volunteer study partner to go over what was missed. If given a directive to provide a recording or text copy, I would do it but shave points off their grade to demonstrate that you can't just sleep through classes, get bailed out later and get the same grade that your peers-- no matter how tired-- managed to get through.
Teacher needs to ask self, "Why wasn't the child paying attention?" Were the police at his house till 3 in the morning because of a domestic dispute (I've had this happen)? Is he sick? Or, does the lesson presentation need some beefing up? During my first year teaching, I was in a remote building with a student population with police rap sheets as long as your arm. One day, my seniors came into the room for class, and I could feel the tension. I continued to take attendance as the rest of the class settled down. One of my boys pulled a knife on another student. Luckily the kids respected me and I got him to put the knife away. When my principal found out what had happened, he blew up on me and asked me what I had done to cause the situation. I was beyond ticked!!! The boys had an altercation coming down the hill to my building and I though, "How was this my fault?" However, that evening I reflected on the situation and realized I needed to develop a "Come into the class routine". So, I collected a set of interesting activities that would steer their focus upon coming into the classroom. I have now been teaching for 15 years and have maintained the routine. While the principal was probably a little insensitive, I learned something from the situation. It's not always fair but you have to set up senerios that put you in control of the class .... not the kids in control.
At the college level, I would not kick the chair or bolt them awake an embarrass them but I would tap them and then speak to them after class to see what the deal is. If they have a job after school or childcare issues that keep them up late at night, I'd try to find alternative methods for them such as having the lecture recorded and providing an audio DVD on which they would be quizzed. At this point, these are adults, some with quite a few adult responsibilities in addition to possibly not getting proper nourishment.
At the high school level, I would think that hanging out, playing video games, staying up late, senioritis, etc., is the cause of the sleeping in class and I'd have a word with the parents about it and tell them that their teen risks failing the class because I will not rehash prior lectures for someone who slept through my class.
High school is old enough to be responsible and stay awake during class. Why allow staying up too late or anything else as an excuse for falling asleep during class? No excuse is good enough, but it does happen, so they should suffer the consequences of being embarrassed.
On the college level, it isn't up to the prof to fix things. It's up to the student. If there are alternative methods to be found, it should be the student finding them.
Give the student the responsibility to be accountable for his own work.
High school is old enough to be responsible and stay awake during class. Why allow staying up too late or anything else as an excuse for falling asleep during class? No excuse is good enough, but it does happen, so they should suffer the consequences of being embarrassed.
On the college level, it isn't up to the prof to fix things. It's up to the student. If there are alternative methods to be found, it should be the student finding them.
Give the student the responsibility to be accountable for his own work.
ITA. By college, students should be finding their own way. They need to learn this in high school. If we coddle them in high school, they will not be able to help themselves in college.
Realistically, college professors have hundreds of students. I'm sure it hasn't changed much but there were hudreds of seats in the lecture halls where I attended lectures. It is, absolutely, unreasonable to think a professor should accomodate individual students.
By the time students graduate from high school, they need to know how to individualize their own educations or they are in trouble. The world will not cater to them. The world doesn't care what their learning style is or what kept them up last night at home. THEY have to worry about their learning style and make sure they get what they need.
I was described by one high school teacher as "A why person in a what world.". I was coming up through an education system that concentrated on knowing things but I needed to understand or I was crippled. I had to learn to take the time to understand on my own. Fortunately, this was easier in college where professors tended to explain things and expect the students to figure out how to do them vs. high school where we were shown how to do things without much explanation.
The point, however, is that "I" had to learn how to adapt. I have a burning need to understand why things work the way they do. I can't do anything with information until I understand. The education system does not owe it to me to adapt to me. I have to adapt to them.
High school is old enough to be responsible and stay awake during class. Why allow staying up too late or anything else as an excuse for falling asleep during class? No excuse is good enough, but it does happen, so they should suffer the consequences of being embarrassed.
On the college level, it isn't up to the prof to fix things. It's up to the student. If there are alternative methods to be found, it should be the student finding them.
Give the student the responsibility to be accountable for his own work.
Not that I'm excusing the behavior becuase I do believe that that the student is the one who needs to adapt but, biologically, teenagers are programmed to stay up late and sleep late. Unfortunately, we refuse to adjust the school schedule to account for this. We've decided that the ability to participate in sports after school and hold down part time jobs is more important so we have our students go to school earlier and earlier as they age instead of later and later.
IMO, high school should start around 9:00 AM not 7:30 AM. You'd also cut down on time students are unsupervised after school too because the time between getting out of school until parents get home would be shorter.
But you know, if you have a 13-18 year old that you can't leave alone for a couple hours in the afternoon you have way more problems than the school can fix.
We have parents try to drop their kids off (HS) on in-service days and holidays because, as they say, "I can't leave him/her alone when I'm not there".
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
ITA. By college, students should be finding their own way. They need to learn this in high school. If we coddle them in high school, they will not be able to help themselves in college. 