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I would compare teaching with other professional jobs- not a fast food worker??
Yes, I was being facetious... I responded to someone who said that nobility should not be confused with someone not being able to go to the bathroom at will.
And actually, a missionary in Zimbabwe could be considered very noble and not have a professional degree. I would say that neither having a professional degree nor not having one contributes to the nobility of a profession.
Let me rephrase. How many professional jobs that require advanced degrees. (law, accounting, medicine, engineering)..don't allow an adult to leave work for appointments (most school campuses are closed, or require 'excuse notes' for appointments), don't allow sick days unless the worker finds their own replacement and leaves explicit directions about what needs to be done when they're gone, and yes...won't allow the worker to leave to go to the bathroom unless there is a replacement?
In my opinion, in most (public) schools, teachers are not regarded as the professionals who they are. The children pick up on that and treat the teachers with the same disrespect that the administration , and many parents, do.
What a shame.
Then perhaps you would rather not be counted as professionals....???
Teachers have to find their own subs?? I've never heard of that...usually subs are coordinated through the district or individual school. Teachers in our district seem to be absent when they need to be, when they or their kids are sick, even for 'appointments' and I think they even get a few vacation days during the school year but I'm not 100% sure on that. As for using the bathroom, well you sure can't leave the kids unattended so yeah, I guess someone else would have to step in. That seems reasonable as well.
As for other professionals just getting up and going (whether that be the bathroom or anywhere else) it's probably not as common as you might think. My DH as an engineer/manager and he can't get up and leave presentations, meetings, evaluations, seminars, etc. to tinkle. He goes either before or after or waits for a break....otherwise it seems very UNPROFESSIONAL. He can't just skip work to go to the dentist or 'appointments'....I guess he could but that isn't very professional either and I doubt his employers would appreciate it. If he does have to leave the workplace for a while, he still has to get the work done. There isn't anyone to take his place for the day when he is out. If he is out work doesn't get done or it gets done from home....even if he is sick or on vacation. The rest he has to make up for when he gets back. You see, that is his JOB. The job of a teacher is to teach students. School is run for a set amount of hours and days just as others have to work around set work expectations. They can't do that if they are at the dentist, bank, doctor or some 'appointment' just as my DH can't conduct a seminar or customer meeting from those locations. When was the last time you heard of a lawyer leaving court to attend to personal business, or an accountant leaving a client meeting to go to the dentist, or a surgeon leaving the operating room to tinkle in the middle of surgery....You think only teachers can't just do what they want/need when they want/need to?? ....
Is it too much to ask that teachers be on-site when the students are?? Students need to seek permission to be absent or their work for the day gets a 0. If my high school students miss more than a few of any one class for ANY reason (including excused absences) they get a 0 for the semester. Gee, I guess I better find another time to get them to the dentist or the orthodontist or whatever important appointments they have. Certainly it isn't any harder for teachers to do the same. I expect the teachers to be there when students are, with the exception of illness and perhaps only on other rare and truly exceptional circumstances. That's how professionals act in a work environment.
Then perhaps you would rather not be counted as professionals....???
Teachers have to find their own subs?? I've never heard of that...usually subs are coordinated through the district or individual school. Teachers in our district seem to be absent when they need to be, when they or their kids are sick, even for 'appointments' and I think they even get a few vacation days during the school year but I'm not 100% sure on that. As for using the bathroom, well you sure can't leave the kids unattended so yeah, I guess someone else would have to step in. That seems reasonable as well.
As for other professionals just getting up and going (whether that be the bathroom or anywhere else) it's probably not as common as you might think. My DH as an engineer/manager and he can't get up and leave presentations, meetings, evaluations, seminars, etc. to tinkle. He goes either before or after or waits for a break....otherwise it seems very UNPROFESSIONAL. He can't just skip work to go to the dentist or 'appointments'....I guess he could but that isn't very professional either and I doubt his employers would appreciate it. If he does have to leave the workplace for a while, he still has to get the work done. There isn't anyone to take his place for the day when he is out. If he is out work doesn't get done or it gets done from home....even if he is sick or on vacation. The rest he has to make up for when he gets back. You see, that is his JOB. The job of a teacher is to teach students. School is run for a set amount of hours and days just as others have to work around set work expectations. They can't do that if they are at the dentist, bank, doctor or some 'appointment' just as my DH can't conduct a seminar or customer meeting from those locations. When was the last time you heard of a lawyer leaving court to attend to personal business, or an accountant leaving a client meeting to go to the dentist, or a surgeon leaving the operating room to tinkle in the middle of surgery....You think only teachers can't just do what they want/need when they want/need to?? ....
Is it too much to ask that teachers be on-site when the students are?? Students need to seek permission to be absent or their work for the day gets a 0. If my high school students miss more than a few of any one class for ANY reason (including excused absences) they get a 0 for the semester. Gee, I guess I better find another time to get them to the dentist or the orthodontist or whatever important appointments they have. Certainly it isn't any harder for teachers to do the same. I expect the teachers to be there when students are, with the exception of illness and perhaps only on other rare and truly exceptional circumstances. That's how professionals act in a work environment.
People who wonder why the educational system is 'failing our kids' need to take a deep look at themselves and wonder if the disdain and disrespect they feel (envy, even?) toward teaching professionals they feel (consciously or subconsciously) are being passed on to their kids. If kids are constantly being told that their teachers are nothing more than minimum wage workers, and that they (their parents) could do better, well, is it any wonder they don't respect their teachers or the information they are trying to impart?
You have just described a great many jobs, not many are considered noble. Point is that everyone has a role to play, some are teachers, some are trash men, some are executives, some are service technicians. ALL provide a service that enriches our society and most consider their job difficult on some level, and most do not consider their position valued enough by others. I've never met an HVAC repairman who was in it for the money...but they have told me they like the work, they are good at it, they like to meet people and have a variety of experiences....it suites them. DH is management at a manufacturing plant. He doesn't do it for the money, he is good at it, it uses his talents and skills in challenging ways. He could make more money doing something else and other than the paycheck there are no thanks or community accolades for his work.
Nothing against trash men, I know they certainly provide a necessary service, but if you believe that your child's teacher is no more important in society than a trashman, I really don't know what to say.
Why do teachers have to constantly put themselves out as nobles, as martyrs
(martyr: One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a belief, cause, or principle.)
of sort when they have a role and place and job JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE?? But no, they are not like everyone else...because their job is difficult and thankless, they are devoted to a meaningful cause and not in it for the pay. Oh please....it's time to realize that nearly every job is the same in those respects.
There is a difference whether you choose to believe it or not. Teachers work with minds and lives. Shaping lives. Lives are in their hands. They are not like everyone else, jobwise. Teachers are really more of a substitute parent these days than the classic image of a teacher. Is parenting the same as hauling trash or being an executive? Often even one word a teacher says to a student can make a positive or negative difference in a child's life, can effect that child's life for many years. I wouldn't want my child in a classroom that I didn't think was lead by a teacher whom I considered noble to some degree at least.
Now, my opinion might be softened if we had a truly world class education system and kids leaving the system with skills at least equivalent to those other first world nations are producing.
We don't have a world class education system because so many parents don't value education. It starts at home. Books and education are undervalued in our country. Instead of sitting their children down and teaching them ABC's and other basics to give them a head start, parents put them in front of TV and video games and send them to kindergarten without even knowing their own names.
But we don't have that. Until education is considered paramount in this country, we won't have that.
The more we put in the less we seem to get. Seems nobility and dedication to the cause are not enough to produce desired results. If at the end of the day all your work and dedication do not produce a quality product (individually and collectively as an industry) then you have to ask yourself if you are deserving of the praise you seek or if you should first check to see if you are meeting expectations??
Many teachers hands are tied in this area. Most have to follow strict guidelines as to WHAT and HOW to teach, regardless of the fact that it goes against everything that teacher was ever taught. Often lessons are subscribed to in some way or adopted by the district and the teacher's role is reduced to reading from a script. Administrators and lawmakers don't care that a teacher has many years of experience or advanced degrees. You do what you're told or else. And next year you'll do it differently. Another reason results are not being produced.
Graduation rates are around 70% overall, closer to 50% in major cities. Some high school students are mature enough to see that it is all a sham and a waste of time. I know more than one high school student who has dropped out, gotten a GED, and entered community college, ending up ahead of their former classmates.
If my DH had those kinds of numbers at his work he would be fired, the department would be overhauled. The entire education system in this country NEEDS to be overhauled (or redeveloped). If it was company wide they would be out of business in a few short years. Would you hire a repairman who fixed only 70% of the problems, or go to a store where only 70% of the items ring up properly at the register? How about if your garbage man picked up only 70% of what you leave at the curb each week or if your package delivery service delivered on time only 70% of the time. Granted, that is using only one metric as a measurement, maybe educators are using different metrics to measure their success but if my kid brings home a 70% on a report card it is a D-, one point away from being an F.
Teachers use a metric called NCLB and don't have time to think about "what if I only give 70%" since they are required by federal law to make sure that they have a 100% success rate, based on that federal mandate.
While I'm at it...let's talk about the time teachers put in on and off the clock. Whoopdie-doo. LOTS of people, especially those who consider themselves 'professionals' work more than a 40 hour week. Salaried employees are not paid by the hour, they are paid for a job no matter how many hours per day. Many hourly folks work overtime. I can't tell you when I last met someone who works ONLY 40 hours a week. Teachers, time to reset the bar. My kids WORK 50-60 hours a week counting homework, projects and studying. Some of that work is necessary (even if unassigned) to ensure they are getting a good education in addition to merely good grades. I don't think it's too much to ask that our teachers show the same dedication to their work.
Teaching is a job that you either live and breathe or else you don't succeed. Once, I calculated all the hours I put in and found that I was making below minimum wage. Teaching is emotionally, mentally, physically, and financially exhausting. That is what sets teaching apart. Other jobs may be emotionally demanding or physically demanding, but rarely to the degree that teaching is. Teachers deserve much more credit than they are given. They often serve not only as teachers, but more importantly as caregivers because students don't get it at home. Often they are "required" to be nurses and counselors because those professionals may only be in the school building one or two days per week.
Point being....the idea of having chosen a noble career is more than just a perception, it's not something you demand of others to bestow upon you....YOU HAVE TO EARN IT. What about parenting? Do you consider that to be a noble endeavor? Certainly teaching is on par with parenting. Teachers do all the same things parents do, PLUS attempt to educate your child. Perhaps you, as an individual teacher, are a wonderful teacher, dedicated, noble and all that. Still, you should be working to make changes from the INSIDE of your collective profession that will truly change how your profession is perceived rather than just harping on everyone else to change their view of a profession that is overall lacking in the ability to produce consistent and high results.
Teachers would love to make changes from inside their collective profession. However, teachers usually don't get much of a say in the matter. The teaching profession is narrowly defined by federal and state LAW and strict union regulations.
My comments are in red.
I think that any profession that regularly (daily) goes above and beyond the call of duty deserves to be called noble, and most teachers even exceed above and beyond. (I know there are bad teachers out there, but, honestly, with the NCLB regulations and other realizations they are coming to make, many are falling by the wayside).
Parents, if you truly want to make a difference in your student's education, volunteer in your child's class or school for more than a party or field trip.
Last edited by soonerguy; 02-22-2009 at 01:21 PM..
Why do teachers have to constantly put themselves out as nobles, as martyrs of sort when they have a role and place and job JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE?? But no, they are not like everyone else...because their job is difficult and thankless, they are devoted to a meaningful cause and not in it for the pay. Oh please....it's time to realize that nearly every job is the same in those respects.
Do you know teachers who behave like that? I'm a teacher and I don't. However, when I find myself and my profession attacked, I will defend it. When people make ridiculous statements like, "you only work 35 hours a week", I will correct them. Still, I don't ask to be put on a pedestal.
People who wonder why the educational system is 'failing our kids' need to take a deep look at themselves and wonder if the disdain and disrespect they feel (envy, even?) toward teaching professionals they feel (consciously or subconsciously) are being passed on to their kids. If kids are constantly being told that their teachers are nothing more than minimum wage workers, and that they (their parents) could do better, well, is it any wonder they don't respect their teachers or the information they are trying to impart?
I didn't disrespect teachers in any way. I said they have a job and a role to fill and they should do so without so much complaining and whining. If they want to be considered as professionals they should act like it and have results to boot. As for doing better myself....My experiences are limited to my own education, work in a private school, home school parent and now parent of kids in government schools. I understand the translation is not direct to what a classroom teacher does but I do have very high expectations....just as I did for myself when teaching my own kids. As for respecting individual teachers...some deserve it and some don't. Sorry to say but we have had some real nit wits and I've been shocked at the overall lower standards from when even I was in middle-high school. By the same measure, the kids have had some very good teachers as well.
Do you know teachers who behave like that? I'm a teacher and I don't. However, when I find myself and my profession attacked, I will defend it. When people make ridiculous statements like, "you only work 35 hours a week", I will correct them. Still, I don't ask to be put on a pedestal.
Yes, as based on some of the answers in this thread and others like it as well as IRL.
I didn't disrespect teachers in any way. I said they have a job and a role to fill and they should do so without so much complaining and whining. If they want to be considered as professionals they should act like it and have results to boot. As for doing better myself....My experiences are limited to my own education, work in a private school, home school parent and now parent of kids in government schools. I understand the translation is not direct to what a classroom teacher does but I do have very high expectations....just as I did for myself when teaching my own kids. As for respecting individual teachers...some deserve it and some don't. Sorry to say but we have had some real nit wits and I've been shocked at the overall lower standards from when even I was in middle-high school. By the same measure, the kids have had some very good teachers as well.
How sad that you've been around such 'unprofessional' and nitwit teachers. I know you can't compare homeschooling your own child with teaching a classroom of 30 (or possibly more) of other people's children.
Nothing against trash men, I know they certainly provide a necessary service, but if you believe that your child's teacher is no more important in society than a trashman, I really don't know what to say.
If you read/comprehended my entire response I don't know how you justify this as a summary of my statements.
We don't have a world class education system because so many parents don't value education. It starts at home. Books and education are undervalued in our country. Instead of sitting their children down and teaching them ABC's and other basics to give them a head start, parents put them in front of TV and video games and send them to kindergarten without even knowing their own names. Until education is considered paramount in this country, we won't have that.
I don't think it is reasonable to place blame entirely on family structure when results across the board show that we are producing substandard quality of education (as compared to other first world countries), even in schools/districts that have family support and do not struggle with poverty and kids entering the system unprepared.
Many teachers hands are tied in this area. Most have to follow strict guidelines as to WHAT and HOW to teach, regardless of the fact that it goes against everything that teacher was ever taught. Often lessons are subscribed to in some way or adopted by the district and the teacher's role is reduced to reading from a script. Administrators and lawmakers don't care that a teacher has many years of experience or advanced degrees. You do what you're told or else. And next year you'll do it differently. Another reason results are not being produced.
I understand the challenges but still hold teachers accountable even if they are the last link in the chain. As you described above, their role is pivotal in the lives of some students and they should be standing on the desks screaming to change bad policy as well as holding themselves out to be more accountable. Yet, I don't see this.
Some high school students are mature enough to see that it is all a sham and a waste of time. I know more than one high school student who has dropped out, gotten a GED, and entered community college, ending up ahead of their former classmates.
This is a ridiculous attempt to justify a high drop out rate. You know very well that of the 30% who drop out VERY FEW end up ahead in life. And hey, if it's all a sham and a waste of time, how do you consider teachers to be so noble for being a part of such a system??
The entire education system in this country NEEDS to be overhauled (or redeveloped).Agreed. Teachers use a metric called NCLB and don't have time to think about "what if I only give 70%" since they are required by federal law to make sure that they have a 100% success rate, based on that federal mandate.The mandates are full of loopholes and kids are still being pushed through. All it takes for our students to get through without passing the EOG test is to test again. If they still fail the test the admins can pass them anyway after subjectively determining the student shows 'improvement'.
Teaching is a job that you either live and breathe or else you don't succeed. Once, I calculated all the hours I put in and found that I was making below minimum wage. Teaching is emotionally, mentally, physically, and financially exhausting. That is what sets teaching apart. Other jobs may be emotionally demanding or physically demanding, but rarely to the degree that teaching is. Teachers deserve much more credit than they are given. They often serve not only as teachers, but more importantly as caregivers because students don't get it at home. Often they are "required" to be nurses and counselors because those professionals may only be in the school building one or two days per week.
Again, this IS NOT unique to teachers, interaction with students being the only difference. Still other professions involve service to people as well, maybe not kids but people. It's part of the job, nursing, doctors, counselors, fireman, etc. It's part of the job for teachers too. As for working at minimum wage or below as a professional....WELCOME TO THE CLUB of professionals!! DH worked for many years below minimum wage when his hours were calculated against his salary. Some hourly guys were out earning his salary with very little overtime and they were still home nights and weekends when DH was at work. Seriously, the professional world outside of teaching can be just as demanding. What about parenting? Do you consider that to be a noble endeavor? Certainly teaching is on par with parenting. Teachers do all the same things parents do, PLUS attempt to educate your child.
No, parenting is not in itself noble. As a parent and former home schooler I am well aware of what it takes to be a parent as well as an educator to my children. It is my job, one that I chose and love and do to the best of my ability. I don't stop being an educator because my kids attend government schools. Isn't that what is expected?? Is it noble to do what is expected?? It's just not noble IMO.
Teachers would love to make changes from inside their collective profession. However, teachers usually don't get much of a say in the matter. The teaching profession is narrowly defined by federal and state LAW and strict union regulations.
See above comments about standing on desks and DEMANDING change if teachers feel so strongly that it is necessary. I just don't see/hear teachers fighting for change. I think that any profession that regularly (daily) goes above and beyond the call of duty deserves to be called noble, and most teachers even exceed above and beyond. (I know there are bad teachers out there, but, honestly, with the NCLB regulations and other realizations they are coming to make, many are falling by the wayside).
Perhaps this is where the disconnect is happening. What is above and beyond the call of duty? Some teachers do a lot of extra but I don't think most do. Most do what it takes to get the job done (doing work 'after hours', keeping up with training, making some personal sacrifices, putting yourself into the job) and that's great. Is that noble? Not IMO. It is what it takes to live up to professional standards, if that's what you want. Parents, if you truly want to make a difference in your student's education, volunteer in your child's class or school for more than a party or field trip.
Great idea. However, if you all really want parents more involved you need to be better able to handle constructive criticism and input from parents and not treat parents like hired hands or like we are in your way. We have a personal interest in our children and expect our concerns to not only be heard but addressed. I have found that teachers and admins really don't want this. They are fine for people to come and help out, but just keep your mouth shut.
Great idea. However, if you all really want parents more involved you need to be better able to handle constructive criticism and input from parents and not treat parents like hired hands or like we are in your way. We have a personal interest in our children and expect our concerns to not only be heard but addressed. I have found that teachers and admins really don't want this. They are fine for people to come and help out, but just keep your mouth shut.
In the proper forum, a parent's input is invaluable- and many parents voice concerns in a respectful way. HOWEVER, there are parents who feel that the teachers are the hired hands and not professionals who know what they're doing.
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However, if you all really want parents more involved you need to be better able to handle constructive criticism and input from parents and not treat parents like hired hands or like we are in your way. We have a personal interest in our children and expect our concerns to not only be heard but addressed. I have found that teachers and admins really don't want this. They are fine for people to come and help out, but just keep your mouth shut. 
