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No, children are not machines but teachers are not permanent fixtures in their lives. Teachers come and go, if not during a year, year over year and kids survive.
I disagree the teacher wrongs the students. The teacher didn't make a committment beyond her contract to anyone so she wrongs no one by leaving. They may not like it but they can take that up with those who determine the teacher's pay since there is an easy fix for this problem.
The students will not be ignored. The school will replace the teacher with another teacher willing, for whatever time, to work for low pay for whatever reasons they're willing to work for it. If the students would not be taught, you'd have a semi argument (you still couldn't argue that it falls to one particular person to stay in spite of low wages). The student still gets taught so it's transparent them. Three weeks after the new teacher comes in, they're back to normal mode.
Yes, kids in poor areas and areas that pay poorly do need teaching and there are teachers who can afford to take those jobs who do. There are other teachers who only take them for as long as they have to because they can't afford them. For example, there are a handfull of long term teachers at our school. All of their husbands earn six figure salaries. What they earn doesn't matter. Those whose incomes matter to their families, come and go. The school gets a cheap teacher for however long they're there and they get some experience but as soon as they can they move on.
The teacher's action rights the situation in two ways. In refusing to continue to accept an unfair wage situation she sends a message loud and clear to the administration regarding her reasons for leaving and she does right by her family. My first obligation is to my own children because I did make a committment to do best by them. My committment to the school is only to teach until such a time as it is no longer mutually agreeable that I do so. Students just get who they get for teachers.
While I don't like it when change happens to my kids because change is hard, change is part of life and every person has the right to the best life they can get for themselves. No one should be guilted in accepting less than they and their family deserve in the manner you and others try to do. The bottom line is teaching is a job. Part of a job is the pay and benefits package. If that is inadequate, it's reasonable that a teacher would look for other work and take it when it comes along.
That people children become attached to are transient in children's lives is a fact of life. Most kids in public schools will have over 40 teachers in thier school careers because teachers are not permanent and the less you pay them, the less permanent they are. Imagine that.
One of the reasons I want to make a job change is I want to be somewhere where I can make a long term, personal, committment. I like to grow roots. I can't do that where I am. I'm not as effective as I could be because of that. The issue that must be resolved to be in that position is wages. So, yeah, when someone offers me a livable wage, I'm gone. It will be hard but all parties will get over it in short order. I assure you that none of the teachers, administrators or students even think about the four teachers who left after the school year stared last year. No one expects teachers to be permanent. If they are happy where they are, they hope they'll stay but none are permanent.
Too bad the school doesn't let teachers say good bye to the students. They feel it's best if you just disappear on your last day, then they badmouth you for leaving to the students so they'll accept your replacement more readily. Somehow, I think explaining why you're leaving and saying good bye would be better but they do this more than I do.
I'm sick of not being able to provide my family with what they deserve. I'm amazed that anyone would actually think I have an obligation to short change my family because I happen to be a teacher. That's just wrong.
Happen to be a teacher as if you were assigned that profession? It is more like elected, selected, chose, went out of your way to become. Yes many expect us to know what we were getting into since we consider ourselves educated professionals.
In general I agree with uptown urbanist. I myself pretty much believe in finishing what I start when it comes to contracts, committments, coaching, etc. For example, if I make a committment to coach a team, I finish the season. If I commit to working at a school for that school year, I do not consider any jobs for that year. However, there are exceptions, and it is mostly dependent on several factors:
1) How supportive, committed and fair has my employer been with me up to this point.
2) Has a very highly desirable considerable higher paying job that I've applied for a while ago suddenly became available. Like a now or never opportunity. Definitely something to consider.
3) If I am working at a charter school or private school and I begin to notice that it is being poorly run, and it is beyond my control. In other words, I do not have the authority to correct problems or make certain decisions, This in turn leads to lower enrollment and frustration, then yes, I would definitely jump ships if I can. Because at this point it is like staying in a sinking ship.
Also, if I work for an employer who refuses to pay me what I feel my market value is even though I've performed above my expectations, or they take away financial incentives for projects or assignments that were there before, yet they seem happy with my work, and am getting paid considerably less than someone in a similiar position, then yes I would leave in the middle of the year if I had to.
Other than that, it will be difficult for me to leave in the middle of the year, or once the school year starts. But again, I would under those circumstances that I mentioned above.
[quote=Ivorytickler;10575606]No, children are not machines but teachers are not permanent fixtures in their lives. Teachers come and go, if not during a year, year over year and kids survive. [quote]
Yes, and aiming for survival is what it's all about for your students, huh?
I have hire goals and hopes for mine.
And there is a world of difference between leaving at the end of the year and leaving in the middle. As with the machine analogy, this one doesn't fly. When the teacher leaves at the end of the year, a particular task is done - for students as well as staff. When the teacher leaves in the middle it disrupts the education for the kids.
Argue with me, if you would like, but I've watched it happen enough to know it is true.
As for the permanence factor, you've convinced me that you will not be, and do not wish to be, a permanent factor in your students' lives. I wish to be, and often have become, a permanent factor in my students' lives.
And by leaving in the middle, you increase your chance of becoming a permanent factor, but for the wrong reasons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
I disagree the teacher wrongs the students. The teacher didn't make a committment beyond her contract to anyone so she wrongs no one by leaving.
By showing up at the beginning of the year, the teacher has an implied contract with the students. If you are not committed to your students, it will communicate to them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
They may not like it but they can take that up with those who determine the teacher's pay since there is an easy fix for this problem.
This crap again.
"An easy fix." B.S.
I am in favor of students' taking it up with those who determine the pay, but it sure as heck isn't the school administrators in your charter!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
The student still gets taught so it's transparent them. Three weeks after the new teacher comes in, they're back to normal mode.
Your ignorance of the students whom you teach is appalling. OTOH, it explains why you think there is nothing special required to be a teacher.
How fast do you think the new teacher will be brought in? How fast until s/he is up to speed on where the group is and where individual students are? Is your teaching so mediocre or poor that any random body can do as good a job as you can?
If so, how do you justify complaining about people with a lesser certification getting jobs ahead of you?!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
there are a handfull of long term teachers at our school. All of their husbands earn six figure salaries. What they earn doesn't matter.
*gapes*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
The teacher's action rights the situation in two ways. In refusing to continue to accept an unfair wage situation she sends a message loud and clear to the administration regarding her reasons for leaving and she does right by her family.
Oh yes - that message to the administration must be so terribly clear and effective. After all, people like you have been walking out on their students over money for how long now?
Must be good to know that approach solves everything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
While I don't like it when change happens to my kids because change is hard, change is part of life and every person has the right to the best life they can get for themselves.
And damn the consequences on others. Yes, we get it.
Get as high on the totem pole as you can, no matter who you have to step on to get there. After all, they'd do it to you, wouldn't they?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
One of the reasons I want to make a job change is I want to be somewhere where I can make a long term, personal, committment. I like to grow roots. I can't do that where I am. I'm not as effective as I could be because of that.
Oh.
I see.
You are consciously doing a less good job for these students because you are getting paid less to do it. The quality of your performance depends on how much you are getting paid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
I assure you that none of the teachers, administrators or students even think about the four teachers who left after the school year stared last year. No one expects teachers to be permanent.
I assure you, you have no concept of how the students or other staff members feel about those who left. Nor, if I were a student or staff member, would I feel the slightest urge to let YOU know how I feel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
Too bad the school doesn't let teachers say good bye to the students. They feel it's best if you just disappear on your last day, then they badmouth you for leaving to the students so they'll accept your replacement more readily. Somehow, I think explaining why you're leaving and saying good bye would be better but they do this more than I do.
"I'm leaving because money is more important to me than you are, and I'm going to forget all about you within 3 weeks, anyway. And I am so sure I understand your feelings that I don't think they matter."
Why would you want to say goodbye to a group of students you have already insisted would forget all about you in 3 weeks? To assuage your guilt?
And if you are right that the school badmouths the teacher "so they'll accept your replacement more readily," haven't you already indicated this is a legitimate goal and therefore an okay thing to do? Haven't you done enough damage already?
You remind me of that awful manipulative scene at the end of Dead Poets Society. Feh.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
I'm sick of not being able to provide my family with what they deserve. I'm amazed that anyone would actually think I have an obligation to short change my family because I happen to be a teacher. That's just wrong.
I'm amazed that:
a) You went into teaching without doing your research, given how important money is to you;
b) That you think that what you can buy for your children is what is most important to them.
Somehow, I have not had the sense that anybody in your family is going hungry because you are teaching.
Happen to be a teacher as if you were assigned that profession? It is more like elected, selected, chose, went out of your way to become. Yes many expect us to know what we were getting into since we consider ourselves educated professionals.
Yes, just like people choose other professions and they move between jobs to put themselves in better positions. It's a profession. And I do know what I'm getting into. I also know what I'm working towards and it's not a low paying position in a charter school. I didn't become a teacher to donate my time so the owner of the school can make more money .
What are the consequences to others if a teacher leaves? Will they be untaught? Teachers are replacable. For every teacher who leaves a low paying position to take a better one, there's one to replace them. It's not like the job goes undone if one teacher leaves and even if it did, that person would still be under no obligation to earn less than they're capable of unless they chose to do so. Some people can afford to donate their time. Some can't. It's great when people can and want to but no one has the right to tell them they have to.
Personally, I will only accept low pay and lousy benefits as long as I have to. I want to teach but I need to earn a living doing it. They'll replace me as fast as they replaced the guy I replaced. It's not like there is a shortage of teachers and even if there were, which ones are obligated to accept low pay and no future?
Like it or not, everyone is entitled to seek to better their position. It's one of the principles this country was founded on and it includes teachers.
So, in your world, when you line up all the new teacher graduates, how do you decide which ones have the right to seek better employment and which must accept poverty level wages? Is it a matter of luck? If you land a good job out of college, you win but if you land one that really amounts to only getting experience with no future, you're stuck? If the only job you can get out of the gate is the low paying one in the lousy part of town, you're obligated to stay while you're luckier counterparts make a nice living and can hope to retire someday? How do you decide which teachers are worth it and which must settle for less?
IMO everyone has the right to decide what they will work for and if they have to accept less for a time, they have the right to move up when the opportunity presents itself. No students are short changed in the process because there are teachers in line for those jobs. After a couple of days adjustment, it's business as usual.
My dd lost a beloved teacher mid year and the only reason anyone was mad at her is she had promised to come back to visit. Unbeknownst to the kids, the school refused to let her do so so the kids concluded she never cared for them in the first place and was a liar. All the kids cared about was that she remember them. They were sad to see her go but they adjusted in short order. Kids tend to do that.
Teachers are not permanent fixtures in kids lives. They don't promise that to the kids or the parents. They are employees of the school system not saints. Sometimes the school systems move teachers. The same year my dd lost the teacher who left, the school chose to move her replacement to another room after only a couple of months and bring in a new teacher in a move to replace a teacher who left in another room. The first replacement teacher was a better fit for the other room. So, my dd had three teachers that year. Did we like that? No. But we respect the right of each teacher to decide where they will work. Honestly, I'd rather not have a teacher for my kids who doesn't want to be there and I can imagine a teacher could be bitter if they had a better opportunity but couldn't take it because they were forced to stay. I'd rather see them leave myself.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 09-02-2009 at 05:50 PM..
In general I agree with uptown urbanist. I myself pretty much believe in finishing what I start when it comes to contracts, committments, coaching, etc. For example, if I make a committment to coach a team, I finish the season. If I commit to working at a school for that school year, I do not consider any jobs for that year. However, there are exceptions, and it is mostly dependent on several factors:
1) How supportive, committed and fair has my employer been with me up to this point.
2) Has a very highly desirable considerable higher paying job that I've applied for a while ago suddenly became available. Like a now or never opportunity. Definitely something to consider.
3) If I am working at a charter school or private school and I begin to notice that it is being poorly run, and it is beyond my control. In other words, I do not have the authority to correct problems or make certain decisions, This in turn leads to lower enrollment and frustration, then yes, I would definitely jump ships if I can. Because at this point it is like staying in a sinking ship.
Also, if I work for an employer who refuses to pay me what I feel my market value is even though I've performed above my expectations, or they take away financial incentives for projects or assignments that were there before, yet they seem happy with my work, and am getting paid considerably less than someone in a similiar position, then yes I would leave in the middle of the year if I had to.
Other than that, it will be difficult for me to leave in the middle of the year, or once the school year starts. But again, I would under those circumstances that I mentioned above.
I agree with your post. I think I owe more to an employer who is fair with me than one that isn't. My school treats teachers like cheap and easily replacable commodities. The ones who stay are pretty much treated like volunteers as they kind of are. They're people whose spouses earn enough to supplement their classrooms. One of my frustrations is my salary is so low I can't afford to buy things I would buy myself for the classroom. My husband says if the school won't spend money on the classroom, he isn't either. It's frustrating to know that things could be so much better.
Leaving, if it happens, will be difficult. It's hard not to get attached to the kids but I have to look at my long range goals and one of them is to not live in poverty. While I would have preferred a job offer had come in June, so I'd never met this year's group of kids, it didn't. If one comes in September, well, when opportunity knocks, you open the door....
I'll go one further. If a highly desirable position comes open, I'll apply for it. It doesn't have to be something I applied for before. Unfortunately, I don't control when opportunity knocks. I wish I did. I never would have settled for this job in the first place. I wouldn't have had to.
Honestly, I'd rather not have a teacher for my kids who doesn't want to be there and I can imagine a teacher could be bitter if they had a better opportunity but couldn't take it because they were forced to stay. I'd rather see them leave myself.
There is a difference between the teacher who is forced by contract to stay and the teacher who recognizes the commitment s/he made to the pupils and chooses to stay.
The teacher who cannot give her/his all to the students, because s/he has already decided to leave and is just waiting for the opportunity?
THIS is the teacher I would like to see leave the classroom - and not enter another.
There is a difference between the teacher who is forced by contract to stay and the teacher who recognizes the commitment s/he made to the pupils and chooses to stay.
The teacher who cannot give her/his all to the students, because s/he has already decided to leave and is just waiting for the opportunity?
THIS is the teacher I would like to see leave the classroom - and not enter another.
Teacher's don't make committments to students to stay. They sign contracts. What they commit to is written in that contract. Mine is an at will contract. I have no idea what yours is.
There is nothing in my contract that requires me to give my all to my students. I'm actually allowed to save some for my own family . My contract requires me to teach my students and teach them to high standards. I am not required to sell my soul . Why do you think teachers are? I'm not taking a vow here. I'm taking a job.
Well, using your standard, most teachers I know shouldn't be teachers because most of them go after better paying jobs. Imagine that. People wanting to be compensated well for what they do. What a strange thing. (Why is it in any other profession bettering your position is applauded?)
Teachers are not required to be martyrs. I have no idea why you think they should be.
Why do you keep bringing up a committment to the students? There is no contract between student and teacher. The contract is between the school and the teacher. No, personal, committment is take to individual students because none is needed. As I've said before, the average student will have 40+ teachers before high school graduation. There is no long term committment. Teachers are transient in student's lives. They come and they go. Now what they teach is another story. That stays with a student for life.
As a teacher, I do have a committment to teach students but I have no committment to a particular bunch of students. I will teach where I am for as long as I'm there and do the job to the best of my ability. Will I look out for my own best interest? Sure. Why wouldn't I? If I don't think highly of myself, why should I expect anyone else to think highly of me? I'm worth more than I'm paid where I am and if someone else actually appreciates what I have to offer, I'm going where I'm appreciated and where I can take care of my own family better. I owe it to no one to go broke. I don't know why you think I do.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 09-02-2009 at 07:36 PM..
There is nothing in my contract that requires me to give my all to my students.
Why do you keep bringing up a committment to the students? There is no contract between student and teacher. The contract is between the school and the teacher. No, personal, commitment is take to individual students because none is needed.
I think you and I have made our stances pretty clear.
The reason I bring up the commitment to the students is because they are the people you are working for, not the parents and not the administrators.
When you insist you don't need to give your all, you ignore your comment that you would have more to give, if only you were willing to establish roots - but since you are not, you hold back some of your teaching ability.
Your perception is that your contract is with the school and that you owe the students nothing.
Mine is different. The day I feel the way you do about teaching is the day I leave the field.
Perhaps you feel the same way, in reverse - the day you feel committed to the students, you will leave the field. I don't pretend to know.
I think you and I have made our stances pretty clear.
The reason I bring up the commitment to the students is because they are the people you are working for, not the parents and not the administrators.
When you insist you don't need to give your all, you ignore your comment that you would have more to give, if only you were willing to establish roots - but since you are not, you hold back some of your teaching ability.
Your perception is that your contract is with the school and that you owe the students nothing.
Mine is different. The day I feel the way you do about teaching is the day I leave the field.
Perhaps you feel the same way, in reverse - the day you feel committed to the students, you will leave the field. I don't pretend to know.
No instructor gives their all. It is perfectly acceptable to leave something left over for my family. I do not have to expend all of my efforts on teaching. I am not required to sacrifice my family for this or any other career. I don't know a single teacher who sacrifices their own kids, which would be the case if you gave your all to teaching (if you give all, there is nothing left ). That is, simply not required. What is required is resonable effort. One could say giving your all when you are teaching. That I am committed to my trade. (personally, I put in more effort than I should because I do cut into my ability to meet my family's needs. I need to work on that.) I'm only required to accept low pay to do this job until I can rectify the situation. One nice thing about rectifying the wage situation will be that I will have more time to work on teaching because I'll be able to affor help at home.
I guarantee you don't give your all. I guarantee, you give effort to things besides teaching. (I'm going to guess you make a pretty good living and have decent benefits. Even if you chose to go broke working in low paying districts, that is your choice. It's not required.) Saying you give your all is just self pontification. I know a few teachers who come close but they're married to their jobs because they have nothing else in their lives (not a put down, just a statement of fact), but they make good money so I guess they're not dedicated in your definition because they went after the decent paying job.
There is nothing wrong with a teacher wanting and going after decent pay. It's an unfortunate fact of life that some opportunities to achieve that goal will come after September 1st. If that happens, there is no requirement to martyr oneself. There are kids to be taught in the better paying school too and there are teachers out of work who will take the job in the lesser paying school until they too can find something reasonable. At the end of the day, the kids all get taught.
I owe my students a good education while I am their teacher. What I don't owe them is a set amount of time I will remain their teacher. I owe it to them to do this job to the best of my ability while standing in front of the classroom. I owe it to them to do my homework, to be prepared.....to live up to my contract by doing the job I contracted to do. I dont owe it to them to accept, what I consider, unreasonable wages any longer than I have to. For the time being, this is the job I have. I hope to have a better one someday. I'll be teaching a different group of kids then but I'll be teaching a different set of kids in 12 months if I stay where I am. Teachers are not permanent fixtures in kids lives. They are transient and kids move on when teachers do. It's not the issue you make it out to be.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 09-02-2009 at 08:24 PM..
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. My contract requires me to teach my students and teach them to high standards. I am not required to sell my soul 
