Texas Needs a Permanent, Progressive State Income Tax (Howe: real estate, lawyers)

[Yellow pool of piddle]

Originally Posted by Texas Ag 93

I've lived in several states where we've had to pay an income tax, and states where we have not. I have concluded that governments will get their pound of flesh from you either way. Moreover, my level of frustration (or not) about paying state income taxes depended largely on how progressive their system was and what I got in way of services.

For example, we lived in Missouri 5 years. I though the tax burden was fair to moderate. The income tax rate was about middle of the road, but property taxes were low. I thought the services were about middle of the road as well.

We also lived in Colorado. They have a flat income tax rate of 4.63% and about middle of the road property taxes. I was impressed by the County services, in particular Parks and Rec facilities. Because of what I perceived as a fair way to tax income (flat), paying income taxes there didn't bother me at all.

We have also considered, and ultimately eliminated, states based on what we perceived to be very high progressive income tax rates, specifically Oregon and South Carolina. For me, a lot of it boils down to fairness. Is the tax burden being evenly distributed to all citizens? If the answer is Yes, I am less inclined to be bothered by it.

Taxes are designed to cheat the poor. Without a tax, we all pay equally through inflation.

[earthisle]

Originally Posted by TheOverdog

Probably not because they are probably paying the equivalent of a 3/2 in property taxes even though their home is worth $2m due to Prop 13, which screws new purchasers at the expense of those who bought a long time ago and bumps up the price of new property because Prop 13 basically acts as a kind of a cap on what economists call 'imputed rent', making the difference between future rent rates and a current fixed home price greater than it is in places like Texas where as property value rises, property taxes rise roughly appropriately. Like my in-laws, who have a ~$1500 tax bill on a $750k house in SoCal. Nice deal if you were alive a long time ago to get it.

However, I disagree that TX needs an income tax instead. The tax rate (property or income) is ultimately just a 'made up' number as state governments decide how much income they want and then adjust taxes as needed. The argument against property tax assumes that somehow governments would take in less if we changed the sources. No.

There are comments to be made about the 'progressiveness' of certain taxes, but property tax (especially in a place like TX that has comparatively low house prices) is pretty darned progressive.

State income tax is also not nearly as progressive as the Feds because most states have fewer rate brackets and the highest brackets kick in at lower incomes. Like CA for example, where someone making $40k pays 8% and someone making $500k pays 12%. So income increases by 40X and taxes only increase by 1.5X.

Property tax is regressive because a millionaire buys a $1 mil house, and a $50kaire buys a $500K house.

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Originally Posted by earthisle

Property tax is regressive because a millionaire buys a $1 mil house, and a $50kaire buys a $500K house.

Yes. Taxes weren't created to benefit the people, but to cheat them. Thanks for the insightful example.

[lepoisson]

Originally Posted by Yellow pool of piddle

Yes. Taxes weren't created to benefit the people, but to cheat them. Thanks for the insightful example.

Taxes are wrong if they are just fees being paid. But I'd argue that having taxes is a good thing in most cases. How else would your roads, libraries, schools, and local/state employees be paid?

[Yellow pool of piddle]

Originally Posted by lepoisson

Taxes are wrong if they are just fees being paid. But I'd argue that having taxes is a good thing in most cases. How else would your roads, libraries, schools, and local/state employees be paid?

Just do those things and pay for them through inflation.

[TexasHorseLady]

Originally Posted by Yellow pool of piddle

Just do those things and pay for them through inflation.

Say what? Where are the funds going to come from to pay for "just doing those things" in the first place?

[Yellow pool of piddle]

Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady

Say what? Where are the funds going to come from to pay for "just doing those things" in the first place?

Yes, I agree that is a problem. The point is that taxes weren't created to help the commoners. They were created to cheat them. Gentlemen met after dinner to share a drink, smoke a fine cigar, and chat about how to manufacture consent.

They still do this in the Old World.

[Slowpoke_TX]

Originally Posted by lepoisson

Taxes are wrong if they are just fees being paid. But I'd argue that having taxes is a good thing in most cases. How else would your roads, libraries, schools, and local/state employees be paid?

User fees, for the most part.

[Yellow pool of piddle]

Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX

User fees, for the most part.

I'm not for doing anything. Let the drunkards eat cake. What is important is the truth. As most of us weren't counted as members of the ruling aristocracy, so taxes were a scheme they concocted to cheat us.

The way I have it figured, an illegal alien today, someone that is citizenship challenged, has more rights than I do. Meanwhile, the nosey federal drunkards we have in office today are taking care of everyone in the world but its own citizens.

[lepoisson]

Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX

User fees, for the most part.

This is how Florida does things. They have no income tax and lower property taxes.

But charging fees for using the library and going to school makes matters a LOT worse. You'll end up with poor people being even more uneducated because they won't pay. I do not have children, and it's sometimes irritating knowing that most property taxes go straight to schools. But it's also a good feeling that schools help make society better.

What about the fire department and ambulance? Imagine them saying "sorry, we didn't receive your fees last month, I guess your house can just burn".

Some user fees are fair (like road tolls), but others are not.