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And apparently, most of the people here, as well as anyone with a decent amount of reasoning skills wouldn't buy yours either. I'm sure there's millions of folks who agree with you, and I would hope that they would be able to present their points a lot better than you. Seriously, you're all over the place.
Terrorist group maps? Really?? Get it together, hun.
Edit: I do think I took myself and my opinion too seriously, though. Even this website, which brands itself as "Deep South USA" doesn't even fit the most accepted definition of the term.
This particular topic is likely one that will never see a real concensus, so no harm is really done by letting people believe what they want.
The people on this particular forum, a Texas forum, with a question about East Texas, are fine people, I'm sure - as are most Texans.
That being said, their opinions on the South, and the Deep South, are going to be heavily influenced by their association with Texas. And that's OK - like I said, this is an OPINION poll - not a popularity contest, or a scientifically vetted survey. The results therefore cannot be deemed as either "accurate" or "inaccurate."
Opinions are interesting but usually biased.
I hope that you've enjoyed my variety of sources. As I've attempted to show, "culture" encompasses all sorts of elements - food, speech, religion, crime, clothing, you name it. I would have thought that you could have realized that was what my various maps and sources were showing, but apparently not, so thanks for the opportunity to clarify.
As for "no harm done," I agree totally! I suspect that you, like me, enjoy bantering back and forth about a wide variety of issues. I haven't taken a bit of our conversation personally, and I sincerely hope that you haven't either. I almost hate to see the topic come to an end - but I'm sure we'll run across each other on this forum again. Looking forward to it!
The people on this particular forum, a Texas forum, with a question about East Texas, are fine people, I'm sure - as are most Texans.
That being said, their opinions on the South, and the Deep South, are going to be heavily influenced by their association with Texas. And that's OK - like I said, this is an OPINION poll - not a popularity contest, or a scientifically vetted survey. The results therefore cannot be deemed as either "accurate" or "inaccurate."
Opinions are interesting but usually biased.
You don't know the situation of everyone who voted. For all you know, they could be as familiar with the southeast as you are. I obviously am.
Something I considered is that you're clearly only familiar with Northeast Texas and not the entire region, so your perception of ET is undoubtedly skewed. I believe you said that you were located somewhere near Tyler, which is arguably the least southern part of the region. Think about that.
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I hope that you've enjoyed my variety of sources. As I've attempted to show, "culture" encompasses all sorts of elements - food, speech, religion, crime, clothing, you name it. I would have thought that you could have realized that was what my various maps and sources were showing, but apparently not, so thanks for the opportunity to clarify.
As for "no harm done," I agree totally! I suspect that you, like me, enjoy bantering back and forth about a wide variety of issues. I haven't taken a bit of our conversation personally, and I sincerely hope that you haven't either. I almost hate to see the topic come to an end - but I'm sure we'll run across each other on this forum again. Looking forward to it!
Sincerely,
Kathryn
Your sources were fine, but they weren't appropriate for the debate. Why you seem unable to comprehend that Texas =/= East Texas is beyond me.
You've been "polite" (albeit, in a bit of a condescending way), but apparently quite unwilling to consider anyone else's points. You were pretty much just plugging your ears with a big smile on your face. There's a difference between respecting someone's opinion and considering their opinion. The latter is pretty much essential for an effective debate.
Not only did I consider your points and opinions, but I attempted to help you understand why they didn't apply. You ignored it. Save for a few jocular city vs. city threads, I try to avoid such reckless debating tactics, so, as far as us discussing anything else any time soon, I think I'll pass.
Not only did I consider your points and opinions, but I attempted to help you understand why they didn't apply. You ignored it. Save for a few jocular city vs. city threads, I try to avoid such reckless debating tactics, so, as far as us discussing anything else any time soon, I think I'll pass.
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You don't know the situation of everyone who voted.
Of course not. Nor do you. Nor are there any controls put upon the group, nor is there any evidence of any sort of statistical integrity required of this poll - because it's an OPINION poll. Not at all actually statistically accurate in any way. But that's ok - it's a discussion forum.
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For all you know, they could be as familiar with the southeast as you are. I obviously am.
Aha! Yet another opinion! Love those opinions - keep 'em coming!
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Something I considered is that you're clearly only familiar with Northeast Texas and not the entire region, so your perception of ET is undoubtedly skewed.
Thanks - opinion again. And not particularly well-informed opinion. You really don't have any idea how familiar or unfamiliar I am with East Texas as a whole. But don't let that stop you from spouting off your opinion - that's what this forum is for, I guess.
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I believe you said that you were located somewhere near Tyler, which is arguably the least southern part of the region. Think about that.
Opinion again! I would guess that we could find quite a bevy of Tylerites who would disagree with you on that point - but like I said, all it would amount to is your opinion vs theirs.
Tyler's Annual Azalea Trail
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Your sources were fine, but they weren't appropriate for the debate.
Opinion # what is it, 135 for you so far? Just because you can't fathom the connection doesn't mean it's not there.
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Why you seem unable to comprehend that Texas =/= East Texas is beyond me.
80+ Cowboy Churches in East Texas alone - twice the number of Cowboy Churches in Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, and South Carolina combined. That fact alone should tell you SOMETHING.
The majority of my posts and sources are directly focused on East Texas - not just "Deep East Texas" or "Texas." But I'm not surprised you're overlooking that salient point.
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You've been "polite" (albeit, in a bit of a condescending way),but apparently quite unwilling to consider anyone else's points. You were pretty much just plugging your ears with a big smile on your face. There's a difference between respecting someone's opinion and considering their opinion. The latter is pretty much essential for an effective debate.
Oh, lordy - the irony. Like I said before, Pot - meet Kettle. You have been confrontational, condescending, inflammatory and intentionally offensive from the start of our discussion. I've noticed that you don't limit that tone to me, though, so I don't take it personally at all. I find it humorous.
So yes - I do have a big smile on my face - though I'm more alert than you give me credit for. That must be why I see subtle differences in culture that you apparently miss.
Of course not. Nor do you. Nor are there any controls put upon the group, nor is there any evidence of any sort of statistical integrity required of this poll - because it's an OPINION poll. Not at all actually statistically accurate in any way. But that's ok - it's a discussion forum.
Aha! Yet another opinion! Love those opinions - keep 'em coming!
Thanks - opinion again. And not particularly well-informed opinion. You really don't have any idea how familiar or unfamiliar I am with East Texas as a whole. But don't let that stop you from spouting off your opinion - that's what this forum is for, I guess.
Opinion again! I would guess that we could find quite a bevy of Tylerites who would disagree with you on that point - but like I said, all it would amount to is your opinion vs theirs.
Tyler's Annual Azalea Trail
Opinion # what is it, 135 for you so far? Just because you can't fathom the connection doesn't mean it's not there.
80+ Cowboy Churches in East Texas alone - twice the number of Cowboy Churches in Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, and South Carolina combined. That fact alone should tell you SOMETHING.
The majority of my posts and sources are directly focused on East Texas - not just "Deep East Texas" or "Texas." But I'm not surprised you're overlooking that salient point.
Oh, lordy - the irony. Like I said before, Pot - meet Kettle. You have been confrontational, condescending, inflammatory and intentionally offensive from the start of our discussion. I've noticed that you don't limit that tone to me, though, so I don't take it personally at all. I find it humorous.
So yes - I do have a big smile on my face - though I'm more alert than you give me credit for. That must be why I see subtle differences in culture that you apparently miss.
This is fun, even though I AM starting to drive my husband a little crazy with this!
OK, here are some more visuals, and more information that shows some differences between East Texas and the Deep South:
I am assuming we can agree that slavery had a significant impact on the culture of both East Texas and the Deep South. Here is an interesting map showing the concentration of slaves in the south in 1860:
LOL, I thought this was a funny City-Data poll - "What is the most "southern" state?" Texas didn't even rate a spot on the poll - not even EAST Texas! (Now, that's not my position - Texas is definitely a southern state - but the poll was about the character of the states, not whether or not the states were a part of the Confederacy). //www.city-data.com/forum/gener...-state-15.html
The concentration of plantations in each state is also indicative of a strong common cultural influence. Check out this article from a travel source:
"Locations
All of the Southern states had plantations, including what Matrana refers to as the Upper South: Virginia, West Virginia, Maryland, Arkansas, Kentucky and Tennessee. Many of the plantations you can visit today are located in the Deep South, including South Carolina, Georgia, Louisiana, Alabama and Mississippi." Southern Plantation Tours | Travel Tips - USAToday.com
What - no mention of East Texas? Why, Ah NEVAH! Fiddle Dee Dee!
How many East Texans know the difference between a muscadine and a scuppernong? (DON'T CHEAT!) And speaking of food items, I can't find any decent fatback anywhere around here. Anyone have any suggestions? I live near Tyler.
Before we go any further, I'd like to make a comment about Southern accents, since that seemed to strike a nerve a few posts back. DEEP East Texas accents near the coast are similar to Gulf Coast accents all the way to Florida. There are also some similarities in culture. But Gulf Coast culture is not the same as Deep South culture - though of course there's some overlap, the closer one gets to the coast. Hence you see Mardi Gras celebrations all along the coast. But Mardi Gras has not historically been celebrated much throughout the Deep South once you get away from the Gulf Coast.
Back to some visuals:
Here's a map of "Islamic Terrorist Groups" in the US. Apparently folks from the Deep South don't put up with such foolishness, even in major metropolitan areas, while Deep Texas folks do:
Anyone from the Deep South knows that the concentration of Krystal Burger locations is indicative of the level of Southern gentility. Here's a map of Krystal locations:
Speaking of Deep South foods - here's where people eat the most grits:
Concentration of Cowboy Churches in Deep South states:
Louisiana - 18
Mississippi - 5
Alabama - 12
Georgia - 16
South Carolina - 5
This whole cowboy thing? Not too common a mindset in the Deep South. And it's a HUGE part of East Texas culture.
Most East Texans have never even imagined boiling peanuts and eating them, though this is very common in Deep South states:
"Southern United States
Boiled peanuts are widely consumed and commercially available in an area of the Southern United States from southern North Carolina south to central Florida and west to Mississippi, (i.e., much of the Deep South). [1] Despite being a prominent peanut-growing state, Virginia does not support a native boiled peanut-eating tradition. The peanuts are sold in the hull and either boiled with only salt or with a piquant spice mixture. The latter are often called "Cajun boiled peanuts". " Boiled peanuts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I grew up eating boiled peanuts in Louisiana, Alabama, and Georgia. I lived in East Texas for twenty years before I FINALLY found hot, fresh boiled peanuts at a stand at Canton Trade Days a couple of years ago. Saw 'em there one time. Guess there's not much of a market here for boiled peanuts. Pity.
Speaking of boiled peanuts - this discussion board comment says it all: do they eat boiled peanuts in Texas? - CougarBoard.com
Question: "Do they eat boiled peanuts in Texas?" Answer from a Texan: "Never heard of them."
This is part I agree with though (the emboldened): When I was in northern Mississippi, I found the accents to be much closer to East Texas and Northern Louisiana/Lower Arkansas than they were to locales along the gulf. And they were certainly far more close to East Texas accents than Georgia, Northern Florida or Alabama accents. So the deep south isnt necessarily synonymous with the gulf coast, but they arent completely separate either, simply because of their relative proximity to one another.
But really, the boiled peanuts thing isnt widely found in Louisiana nor Texas and they would be considered an anomaly if found in either...I know in northwestern Louisiana I didnt see them in stores or gas stations much. So I, personally, have a hard time considering that as anything more than a cursory determinant of the deep south, particularly since they sold and ate them religiously in Tennessee, North Carolina and lower/Southwest Virginia -- and I dont consider any of these states the Deep South. So I tend to view that as being more of an exclusively southeastern thing, rather than an exclusively deep south thing. They also seem to like pickled sausage in the southeast and the deep south. We dont do that in Texas either.
I wont debate the cowboy thing, because that could easily be reduced to such superficiality as marketing, branding, tourism industry etc., depending on how one chooses to look at it.. but from what Ive read cowboys have a long history in parts of the deep south. Northern Florida, Georgia and Alabama specifically had cattle ranches long before Texas was even a state. They were decimated during the Civil War which caused an industrialization of it as they moved west and settled into Texas. This, alone, may not make East Texas the Deep South, but it cant possibly make it a completely separate culture either.
I think we all have different qualifiers too. Nothing wrong with that, but I know the ones I view as being truly important (accents, presence of southern baptists, blacks being the largest minority, Holiday traditions etc.) would all categorize East Texas firmly as being a part of the deep south. But I understand that not everyone uses those qualifiers.
Last edited by soletaire; 07-06-2012 at 07:12 PM..
This is part I agree with though (the emboldened): When I was in northern Mississippi, I found the accents to be much closer to East Texas and Northern Louisiana/Lower Arkansas than they were to locales along the gulf. And they were certainly far more close to East Texas accents than Georgia, Northern Florida or Alabama accents. So the deep south isnt necessarily synonymous with the gulf coast, but they arent completely separate either, simply because of their relative proximity to one another.
But really, the boiled peanuts thing isnt widely found in Louisiana nor Texas and they would be considered an anomaly if found in either...I know in northwestern Louisiana I didnt see them in stores or gas stations much. So I, personally, have a hard time considering that as anything more than a cursory determinant of the deep south, particularly since they sold and ate them religiously in Tennessee, North Carolina and lower/Southwest Virginia -- and I dont consider any of these states the Deep South. So I tend to view that as being more of an exclusively southeastern thing, rather than an exclusively deep south thing. They also seem to like pickled sausage in the southeast and the deep south. We dont do that in Texas either.
I wont debate the cowboy thing, because that could easily be reduced to such superficiality as marketing, branding, tourism industry etc., depending on how one chooses to look at it.. but from what Ive read cowboys have a long history in parts of the deep south. Northern Florida, Georgia and Alabama specifically had cattle ranches long before Texas was even a state. They were decimated during the Civil War which caused an industrialization of it as they moved west and settled into Texas. This, alone, may not make East Texas the Deep South, but it cant possibly make it a completely separate culture either.
I think we all have different qualifiers too. Nothing wrong with that, but I know the ones I view as being truly important (accents, presence of southern baptists, blacks being the largest minority, Holiday traditions etc.) would all categorize East Texas firmly as being a part of the deep south. But I understand that not everyone uses those qualifiers.
I may disagree with your determination, but I salute you on your objective reasoning powers!
Everyone will have differing qualifiers - this makes such great sense I can't see why some others can't grasp that all we're really talking about here are PERSONAL OPINIONS.
I also agree with you that East Texas may not be the Deep South to some people, but it can't be decided by one or two qualifiers either - it's definitely a "Southern" region, and if some people consider it to be a part of the Deep South, then I can certainly respect their right to, and reasons for, that opinion.
Just a note - I used the example of boiled peanuts rather tongue in cheek - but I think my jaw would absolutely drop to the floor if I ever ran across fresh boiled peanuts anywhere in East Texas. Like I said, I did find them once at Canton - but I've looked ever since and never seen them since. I'd pay $25 a whack if I could get them anywhere around here!
Thanks for your civilized input! Sending you a shot of reputation right this cotton pickin' minute!
I may disagree with your determination, but I salute you on your objective reasoning powers!
Everyone will have differing qualifiers - this makes such great sense I can't see why some others can't grasp that all we're really talking about here are PERSONAL OPINIONS.
I also agree with you that East Texas may not be the Deep South to some people, but it can't be decided by one or two qualifiers either - it's definitely a "Southern" region, and if some people consider it to be a part of the Deep South, then I can certainly respect their right to, and reasons for, that opinion.
Just a note - I used the example of boiled peanuts rather tongue in cheek - but I think my jaw would absolutely drop to the floor if I ever ran across fresh boiled peanuts anywhere in East Texas. Like I said, I did find them once at Canton - but I've looked ever since and never seen them since. I'd pay $25 a whack if I could get them anywhere around here!
Thanks for your civilized input! Sending you a shot of reputation right this cotton pickin' minute!
Thanks...and the same to you. I agree, after all is said and done how we form our opinion on this particular matter is rather subjectively based upon which qualifiers we choose; and frankly, if it were indisputable by any standard as to whether East Texas is or isnt the Deep South then we wouldnt even be discussing it right now. Now then, Im off to the Mississippi forum for now see how heated the debate over Mississippi's deep south status has gotten..lol
This is part I agree with though (the emboldened): When I was in northern Mississippi, I found the accents to be much closer to East Texas and Northern Louisiana/Lower Arkansas than they were to locales along the gulf. And they were certainly far more close to East Texas accents than Georgia, Northern Florida or Alabama accents. So the deep south isnt necessarily synonymous with the gulf coast, but they arent completely separate either, simply because of their relative proximity to one another.
But really, the boiled peanuts thing isnt widely found in Louisiana nor Texas and they would be considered an anomaly if found in either...I know in northwestern Louisiana I didnt see them in stores or gas stations much. So I, personally, have a hard time considering that as anything more than a cursory determinant of the deep south, particularly since they sold and ate them religiously in Tennessee, North Carolina and lower/Southwest Virginia -- and I dont consider any of these states the Deep South. So I tend to view that as being more of an exclusively southeastern thing, rather than an exclusively deep south thing. They also seem to like pickled sausage in the southeast and the deep south. We dont do that in Texas either.
I wont debate the cowboy thing, because that could easily be reduced to such superficiality as marketing, branding, tourism industry etc., depending on how one chooses to look at it.. but from what Ive read cowboys have a long history in parts of the deep south. Northern Florida, Georgia and Alabama specifically had cattle ranches long before Texas was even a state. They were decimated during the Civil War which caused an industrialization of it as they moved west and settled into Texas. This, alone, may not make East Texas the Deep South, but it cant possibly make it a completely separate culture either.
I think we all have different qualifiers too. Nothing wrong with that, but I know the ones I view as being truly important (accents, presence of southern baptists, blacks being the largest minority, Holiday traditions etc.) would all categorize East Texas firmly as being a part of the deep south. But I understand that not everyone uses those qualifiers.
Well said, soletaire. I agree about the boiled peanuts. They seem to be mostly a trait of the Atlantic South.
Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi...boiled peanuts abound! HAIL TO THE BOILED PEANUT - a southern charm grossly lacking in East Texas!
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