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You just stated in your last post that street fights were a normal occurance in large cities, but you don't mention that the number of street fights or general public disturbances would fall dramatically if black people weren't committing the vast majority of them. Then you mention that gang violence is problem in most major cities, but again you don't mention that removing gang violence involving blacks would mean overnight the amounts of gun violence and street violence in general would drop to very low levels.
I don't think there is any evidence that gang violence or gang activity would be substantively reduced globally if you 'removed' black people from the equation. I think violence in any form is just unfortunately a part of the global human experience from roots loooong ago. Your singular obsession with black crime is ignorant and blatantly racist.
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Originally Posted by Max Sterling
So no this is NOT normal activity in a large city, this is normal activity in every large city that has a significant black population in practically every country in the world. In the absence of black violence and crime, its not like non-black related violence and crime would rise to take its place, it would remain the same or perhaps go even lower.
It may not be 'normal' to you but - yeah gang violence and violence/murder/crime you name it is pretty constant throughout human history. Sorry to say but true story!
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Originally Posted by Max Sterling
As for dealing with this problem, we've tried all manner of things over the years with black people crying and complaining about it every step of the way. I fully believe there is NOT ONE solution that anyone could ever possibly come up with that would be effective and at the same time not cause black people to get angry and complain about it. Its simply impossible. This is why the problem will never go away because NO solution will ever be satisfactory for black people to get on board with it. Even asking them to raise their kids better is considered racist even though that's probably one of the most important things that can greatly help with their crime and violence problems.
Well if the objective is to eliminate all crime I would agree with you - not gonna happen. Now if we speak to systemic issues of inequality than that is a great start!
Yeah I meant why is that blacks commit a disproportionate amount of crime in Toronto?
Well I think it is a similar story in probably the majority of N.A cities. It is truly a multifactorial ecosystem of factors as opposed to one. I have said before and will say again in this and other threads regarding Toronto, but will extend to other cities as well - systemic INCOME INEQUALITY... I'm not yelling at you lol - i'm just saying getting at the root of the fundamental problem in our society will provide a multitude of symptomatic relief to so many societal ills.
I don't think there is any evidence that gang violence or gang activity would be substantively reduced globally if you 'removed' black people from the equation. I think violence in any form is just unfortunately a part of the global human experience from roots loooong ago. Your singular obsession with black crime is ignorant and blatantly racist.
I'm talking about any country that has taken in significant amounts of black immigrants or has a significant black population in general. 100% you would see a huge reduction in crime and violence in the absense of that population.
And also its funny to me that you just said you don't dispute that blacks commit high amounts of violence and crime and then turn around and call my 'obsession' with wanting to talk about it as being 'blatantly racist'. Again THIS IS WHY nothing will ever get solved because every measure that might be effective in combating this problem is usually called 'racist and unfair' to black people. So pretty much we're saying black people's feelings matter more than the majority non-black population's safety and right to live in a peaceful society and that they can't do anything but live with it and suffer in silence.
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It may not be 'normal' to you but - yeah gang violence and violence/murder/crime you name it is pretty constant throughout human history. Sorry to say but true story!
I never said that gang related violence and crime isn't 'normal', but what I am saying is that in the absense of black gang violence and crime, those levels of gang related activities would be very low. What other gangs are there in the GTA that are non-black that commit anywhere near the amount of violence and crime that black ones do? You can talk about the Asian Assasins or perhaps other non-black gangs, but you could count the number of murders that are committed by them in any given year.
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Well if the objective is to eliminate all crime I would agree with you - not gonna happen. Now if we speak to systemic issues of inequality than that is a great start!
'Systemic issues'. I agree, BUT those systemic issues are mostly of black people's own creation and continued perpetuation. There's literally no other group of people (other than Natives) in the GTA that no matter how poor and improvish have anywhere near the issues that black people do.
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Originally Posted by fusion2
Well I think it is a similar story in probably the majority of N.A cities. It is truly a multifactorial ecosystem of factors as opposed to one. I have said before and will say again in this and other threads regarding Toronto, but will extend to other cities as well - systemic INCOME INEQUALITY... I'm not yelling at you lol - i'm just saying getting at the root of the fundamental problem in our society will provide a multitude of symptomatic relief to so many societal ills.
Income inequality doesn't suddenly cause people to become violent and criminal in high numbers. If that were the case then other ethnic groups in Toronto's extremely multicultural city who were also on the poor side would also be seeing their kids committing higher rates of crime and violence, but year after year we see that this is 100% NOT THE CASE. So obviously income inequality is not a main cause of violence and crime here. In fact for most normal, peaceful people, income inequality makes them work harder to fix that issue rather than turning to crime and becoming more violent.
Aren't there more arab muslims in Montreal vs Toronto? I bring this up because language aside, Moroccans and Tunisians for example are Muslim. By the fact that they are muslim, does this make them radical? Are you concerned about a growing Tunisian and Moroccan population in Montreal?
People do choose to convert to other religions. At times convert present significant concerns as being more easy to radicalized in many faiths because they were lust and now discovered something with meaning to them, they less likely to misinterpret scripture or believe what interpretations they are told and might feel like they need to go above and beyond to prove their worth and commitment to the group.
Not everyone is very religious. Just like everyone in Canada or France is not religious. We can't just assume that.
I'm talking about any country that has taken in significant amounts of black immigrants or has a significant black population in general. 100% you would see a huge reduction in crime and violence in the absense of that population.
The cities with the highest crime rates in Canada are almost all in western Canada where there are almost no blacks.
Aren't there more arab muslims in Montreal vs Toronto? I bring this up because language aside, Moroccans and Tunisians for example are Muslim. By the fact that they are muslim, does this make them radical? Are you concerned about a growing Tunisian and Moroccan population in Montreal?
Where did you get the impression that I think that anyone who is Muslim is automatically a radical? I've never said anything of the sort on this forum or anywhere else.
But yes, some Muslims are radical. Just like some Christians are right-wing nutcases.
I am not any more concerned about the growing Tunisian and Moroccan (and also Algerian) population in Montreal than I am about any other group - as long as these groups aren't primarily made up of radicals. Which, fortunately, they aren't.
What gives AJ - how do you want Canadians to respond to Muslims in this country? Seriously - what are your concerns and how can we address them? Assimilate them - strip away their religion - like what.. Finally spill the beans and stop these childish references to gays loving muslims.
For me as a gay man - I simply do my part to embrace all religious groups in the country. I treat everyone with dignity and respect and just like i'd rather not have people judge me for being a certain way JUST because i'm gay, I'd like to extend the same respect to everyone. What would you like me to do - write my M.P and tell them to stop immigration to Canada from Muslim countries just in case. Shall I cite concerns of their protests regarding sex ed in Toronto - like what?
I read from several posters in here veiled opinions and commentary on this. A lot of judgement towards liberals and those who aren't sounding a 10 alarmer here re muslims in this country but just that veiled and cryptic commentary - nothing substantive, definitive and decisive - all yellow lights....
The problem is that none of this reflects anything that I have said.
My point is simply that it's odd that much of the gay community seems willing to cut more slack to the more traditionalist elements of Islam than they are to Christians in general (not even fundamentalists, just anyone who believes in Jesus, the Pope, etc.).
Within the limits of Canadian law, some Muslims have beliefs that they are entitled to act upon in this country even though they may not be shared by the majority of Canadians - including gays.
In countries where Canadian law does not apply, in some cases these are the same people who might throw gay people off buildings or at least subject them to other not-so-nice things.
The eagerness to embrace these beliefs under the guise of "we're all minorities - gays and Salafists/Wahhabites - and minorities gotta stick together!" is a huge head-scratcher for me.
Attitudes often change with exposure.
In many nations not only Islamic nations homosexuality is illegal.
It is criminal restriction in Jamaica and Russia and neither are Islamic nations.
This often forces people deeper in the closet out of fear.
So the average person has less exposure to people in the LGBT community and don't really understand or know how to deal with the subject objectively.
I personally know many people from traditional religious backgrounds that are against LGBT acceptance and rights.
Once they gain more exposure to people that are openly part of the LGBT there misconceptions and stigmas start to fade.
It often goes from the "these people are bad because my upbringing or religion says so" stereotyping to well they are a nice person, I don't understand it, but I will treat them with mutual respect. I am married to someone who comes from a place where being homosexual is illegal and criminally punishable. At first he did not know how to interact with members of the LGBT community as all his life he was told and heard there people are bad... this is a sin ... etc. But after having the ability to directly interact with members of the LGBT community one on one is day to day normal situations his attitude is significantly different. I am not saying that he would be willing to attend pride events, but I am saying if he saw someone getting harassed for being a member of the LGBT community he would not condone harassing them and would but a stop to it. I think this is a huge step and I think we often underestimate the ability of immigrants evolve or adjust their opinions on topics after regular expose to diverse people.
I did go to Catholic school and the Catholic Church has and it still not accepting of the LGBT community. When I was in high school the entire topic was dodged and my friends that were gay had to endure being harassed, taunted, bullied and/or beaten up should they even own up to it. Most of then never came out until being in university and just pretended to date girl just to get other guys off their back.
I am certain a decade after leaving Catholic School at least 90% the same guys that were bullying guys they thought were gay don't have the same attitude toward towards the LGBT community.
My point is simply that it's odd that much of the gay community seems willing to cut more slack to the more traditionalist elements of Islam than they are to Christians in general (not even fundamentalists, just anyone who believes in Jesus, the Pope, etc.).
Really - are you makin this stuff up AJ - I have no clue where you get this impression from that gays cut any religious group more slack. As I said to UL though, growing up in Canada we are often by sheer force of numbers forced to listen to quotes from the bible about the reasons why we'll burn in hell.. Dunno - that stuff sort of sticks - put yourself in a gay persons shoes regarding that. Objectively, I don't prefer Islam over Christianity - I think they're both out to lunch equally.
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Originally Posted by Acajack
Within the limits of Canadian law, some Muslims have beliefs that they are entitled to act upon in this country even though they may not be shared by the majority of Canadians - including gays.
Like what?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack
In countries where Canadian law does not apply, in some cases these are the same people who might throw gay people off buildings or at least subject them to other not-so-nice things.
Yes in the most extreme examples like with ISIS. They do a lot of abhorrent and disgusting things as a whole. I'm not surprised gays were targeted. I don't think they are a reflection of the majority of the Islamic world though - do you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack
The eagerness to embrace these beliefs under the guise of "we're all minorities - gays and Salafists/Wahhabites - and minorities gotta stick together!" is a huge head-scratcher for me.
I wasn't referring to that. I was referring to the fact that by coming to this country you need to embrace its core values. You need to understand the Constitution and Bill of Rights. If you come here expecting your own religious values to dictate things I think you have another thing coming. So as a minority I think they would understand that even if it doesn't represent their ideal or our perception of what their ideal is.
Attitudes often change with exposure.
In many nations not only Islamic nations homosexuality is illegal.
It is criminal restriction in Jamaica and Russia and neither are Islamic nations.
This often forces people deeper in the closet out of fear.
So the average person has less exposure to people in the LGBT community and don't really understand or know how to deal with the subject objectively.
I personally know many people from traditional religious backgrounds that are against LGBT acceptance and rights.
Once they gain more exposure to people that are openly part of the LGBT there misconceptions and stigmas start to fade.
It often goes from the "these people are bad because my upbringing or religion says so" stereotyping to well they are a nice person, I don't understand it, but I will treat them with mutual respect. I am married to someone who comes from a place where being homosexual is illegal and criminally punishable. At first he did not know how to interact with members of the LGBT community as all his life he was told and heard there people are bad... this is a sin ... etc. But after having the ability to directly interact with members of the LGBT community one on one is day to day normal situations his attitude is significantly different. I am not saying that he would be willing to attend pride events, but I am saying if he saw someone getting harassed for being a member of the LGBT community he would not condone harassing them and would but a stop to it. I think this is a huge step and I think we often underestimate the ability of immigrants evolve or adjust their opinions on topics after regular expose to diverse people.
I did go to Catholic school and the Catholic Church has and it still not accepting of the LGBT community. When I was in high school the entire topic was dodged and my friends that were gay had to endure being harassed, taunted, bullied and/or beaten up should they even own up to it. Most of then never came out until being in university and just pretended to date girl just to get other guys off their back.
I am certain a decade after leaving Catholic School at least 90% the same guys that were bullying guys they thought were gay don't have the same attitude toward towards the LGBT community.
People can and do change.
KLM - nicely done
Can't rep you again yet or I would for this!
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