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My experience with the Prius comes from being the former Fleet Director of the largest non-profit car sharing company in North America that operated a fleet of 300+ Prius' among many other vehicles. The mileage data I have is taken directly from gallons consumed via fuel card data versus miles on the vehicle.
What you are saying though, is that the people who drove the cars didn't own them. People tend to be better with cars they own, so that data skews differently. My friend regularly gets around 50MPG in his 1st gen Prius.
The Prius has lost some or a lot of its halo factor recently, and faces more competition as a fuel-efficient vehicle. However, up until a couple years ago demand was so strong that if you got one without much of a wait or paying more than MSRP, you could benefit not only from its MPG but also its tremendous resale value. In that respect it was arguably cheaper to own over 2-3 years vs something like a Corolla (you lost a lot less in depreciation).
Depreciation is a major factor in the overall cost benefit. In the Prius' heyday (back about 2 years ago when summer gas prices hit $4.00+) they were selling like hotcakes. Heck, I sold a group of 2006 Prius' with about 50k miles on them for close to $30k a pop at auction, which is about $8k more than we paid for them in 2006. However, when gas came back down and the fervor ended, the prices crashed back down to reality. These days while the Prius still has solid resale value in the "lease" timeframe, they drop off pretty quick at higher mileages and aren't much better on a percentage basis than other cars.
The future move for hybrids is the plug in with ~40 miles of all electric driving like the Volt. The Prius is heading this way as well. This gives you the best of both worlds and really changes the economics to be vastly in favor of the hybrids over almost anything else, as long as they can keep the costs in line.
What you are saying though, is that the people who drove the cars didn't own them. People tend to be better with cars they own, so that data skews differently. My friend regularly gets around 50MPG in his 1st gen Prius.
I stated the same in post. My example was one of hard driving in an essentially rental fleet. The Prius does shine in a primarily urban environment and returns better mileage driving through a city than it does driving on a highway. It's the way it was designed. Ultimately mileage is still determined by where and how you drive, as much as the car itself.
Again, I have nothing personally against the car, I just don't see the real benefit in owning one. In my days working in car sharing the reason to have a Prius in the fleet was more about the "green image" than economics as almost any other economy car was a better bet financially.
When it comes to the Prius people tend not to think it terms of fixed cost (car payment, depreciation, insurance) but more of the variable costs (fuel, maintenace). All they know is that they pay less for gas and that makes them think in their minds that they are saving money.
Yes, you are right, most Prius drivers are liberal and there is no doubt about that. I've also noticed that most Prius owners I've met around here are pretty arrogant (I am not trying to make a blanket statement, just sharing my experiences from the road).
I have a Corvette with an exhaust, been cut off, got the finger and had lights flashed at me just because I drive a sports car with a V8 (While most don't understand that I regularly get 30mpg on the highway). Also, with the Lotus (and NSX when I had it), people will often come up to me and complement the car. I obviously don't fish for complements but I don't mind them and will gladly talk to onlookers about the car. Numerous times with Priuses, I see the owner and occupant staring wide-eyed at the car when pulling up to me from behind. When they pull beside me, they almost always look tunnel vision straight ahead to pretend like they don't see the car and hold their nose up. I even waved to a guy who was staring at the car and he just turned away.
Normally I'm not one to make generalizations, but I have not had this kind of experience with any other kind of car owner. If I meet some friendly Prius owners, that would be great - but that has yet to happen.
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Originally Posted by Tom Lennox 70;14650594
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Its suddenly crossed my mind however about the Prius's very liberal reputation, that its a car driven mostly by typical East Coast yuppies and liberal Democrats, especially those into trends and fads (fads like Obama, etc). We're nothing like that, and we'll be going through a lot of Middle America and the southern states. Are we going to be mistakened for the typical arrogant, pretentious East Coast liberal? I hope not because I'm nowhere near that kind of person. I am a patriotic conservative American from a blue collar family who voted for George Bush twice and also for McCain. I despise liberals actually since my grandfather escaped from communist China. My dream car, once I finish grad school and have the money will be either a large SUV like the Expedition, a Hummer, and/or a large Chevy pickup truck.
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Costs of any car should also include its opportunity costs inherent in active&passive safety risks: including braking distances; chassis engineering to emergently maneuver to avoid a collision; all crumple zones, airbags, seat structures and seatbelts aren't created equal, etc
Opp costs may include surgeries, disabilities, lost wages, etc in any collision
Obviously, no amount of money will ever buy back one's health if face post-collision disabilities
By such valuation, would argue any Asian or US car or SUV is far more costly than driving a new performance car like a Mercedes AMG or Porsche
And if short of cash for a safe car, doesn't make a lot of sense to engage in discretionary driving, assuming safety risks for which one cannot pay, without a taxpayer bailout of some kind
At least in SiliconValley, Prius are often mocked as eco-poseur mobiles of those who can't drive and/or properly value physical safety risks....the Google co-founders are notorious for driving Prius but flying via private 767 or G550, burning far more fuel on even one SF-NYC flight than any 10MPG, >600hp Mercedes 65 would burn in yrs of daily commuting
Isn't driving safest car possible for daily commute (when can't telecommute); flying commercial (and only for important business that can't be done via Net/videoconferencing); and doing staycations mandatory for non-hypocritical, tech-savvy eco-commies???
Costs of any car should also include its opportunity costs inherent in active&passive safety risks: including braking distances; chassis engineering to emergently maneuver to avoid a collision; all crumple zones, airbags, seat structures and seatbelts aren't created equal, etc
Opp costs may include surgeries, disabilities, lost wages, etc in any collision
Obviously, no amount of money will ever buy back one's health if face post-collision disabilities
By such valuation, would argue any Asian or US car or SUV is far more costly than driving a new performance car like a Mercedes AMG or Porsche
And if short of cash for a safe car, doesn't make a lot of sense to engage in discretionary driving, assuming safety risks for which one cannot pay, without a taxpayer bailout of some kind
At least in SiliconValley, Prius are often mocked as eco-poseur mobiles of those who can't drive and/or properly value physical safety risks....the Google co-founders are notorious for driving Prius but flying via private 767 or G550, burning far more fuel on even one SF-NYC flight than any 10MPG, >600hp Mercedes 65 would burn in yrs of daily commuting
Isn't driving safest car possible for daily commute (when can't telecommute); flying commercial (and only for important business that can't be done via Net/videoconferencing); and doing staycations mandatory for non-hypocritical, tech-savvy eco-commies???
Great point about the eco-poseur thing. I can't remember which celebrity it was, but this thread made me think of an interview on E! network.
When he was being interviewed, the interview asked him what cars he drove, being that he was given million figures per film. He proudly stated, "I drive a prius, because I care about the environment. I would never drive a Bentley or Lamborghini."
About 15 minutes later he talks about his vacation plans, where the family will be traveling to about a dozen different international locations on the Gulfstream private jet (Which would probably use more fuel than thousands Lamborghinis on the road would during the same timespan). I was surprised that he could not see the hypocrisy in his own statements.
Then again, movie stars don't get millions because of their brains
When it comes to the Prius people tend not to think it terms of fixed cost (car payment, depreciation, insurance) but more of the variable costs (fuel, maintenace). All they know is that they pay less for gas and that makes them think in their minds that they are saving money.
It all depends on each person's own circumstance. I work with people and some drive 60+ miles a day, and they can go in the carpool lane even when they aren't carpooling, so that can save them 20-40 minutes on those days. That's adds up over a year.
Good lord. I don't own a Prius to make a statement, political or otherwise. I bought it primarily to be able to access Virginia's HOV lanes with just me and my wife in the car. In fact, since we were turning in our Honda CRV, we looked first at the Ford Escape hybrid. After two separate test drives, we decided to keep looking - the Escape wasn't for us. But as soon as we drove the Prius, we knew we wanted to get one. The $3195 federal tax credit at the time sure didn't hurt, either.
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Originally Posted by Vinsanity
80 mph is nothing, especially if you're taking a cross-country road trip through the vast expanses of highway in the western states. If the Prius isn't up to snuff to handle those conditions, then definitely look elsewhere; at least something with a 3-digit hp rating.
I mentioned 80 mph in my post in reply to another poster's comments about 80 mph in the PHI-NYC area (max. 65 mph speed limit). Personally, I prefer to break the law only a little; i.e., 5 mph over the limit.
On the other hand, and forgive the political comment, but do you remember the story about Al Gore's son being pulled over in California for going 100 mph in his Prius? Obviously, the Prius isn't a sports car, race car, muscle car, or anything like that ... but it can move right along.
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Originally Posted by NJGOAT
That's the sticky point with the Prius. So many people justify the purchase by saying they are saving money on gas, but frequently omit the amount of money most of them are financing to actually buy the car and the amount of miles you would have to drive to even begin to overcome the cost of purchase versus another efficient car.
Take the example of a base Corolla versus a base Prius.
It's apples and oranges. I admit they are relatively close in size, but the only true comparison that can made between hybrids and non-hybrids is looking at those versions of the same car; for example, Honda Civic and Honda Civic hybrid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT
This is a contentious topic as not many battery packs have actually been replaced and there are a lot of factors that go into it. Let's just say that at the 150k+ mile mark it starts to become a concern and will cost at least $6k to buy a new battery pack, which will actually make our Corolla more economical again in the second 5 year / 100k mile ownership period because chances are the Prius owner will be buying a new car when the battery dies, which is what Toyota would recommend.
This is from the fall of 2008, but at that time, hybrid battery replacement for a first generation Prius was $2,299; for a second generation, it was $2,588. Source
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT
When it comes to the Prius people tend not to think it terms of fixed cost (car payment, depreciation, insurance) but more of the variable costs (fuel, maintenace). All they know is that they pay less for gas and that makes them think in their minds that they are saving money.
Perhaps some people think that way.
When we traded in the CRV for the Prius, we got a car that cost less to buy, cost less to insure, cost less to own, and it holds its value just fine ... especially when the price of gas spikes!
It always has been interesting to me how vehicles can sway people's emotions so much, and sometimes perceptions can be different than reality......
The guy driving the Prius may be an executive who wants good PR, and the trips he takes on his GulfStream will literally burn thousands of times more fuel than 1,000 years of driving a Lamborghini Murcielago which has the lowest mpg of a 2-door car sold today (and is one of my dream cars).
Take the example of Prince Fielder (Brewers' First Basemen). An environmentalist him driving his Lamborghini or Hummer and probably would assume he does not care about the environment. A little known fact about him is that he is a vegetarian. The fact that he doesn't eat red meat will make his environmental impact about 100x smaller over his lifetime than a hybrid owner who does.
How about a guy driving a Ford F250? Many "environmentalists" would automatically assume he doesn't care, even though that is the vehicle many drive who work at nature preserves or animal sanctuaries.
Here's the basic point from my examples: I have no problem at all with someone buying a Prius. What bothers me is that so many owners of this vehicle are quick to judge others which is not right. Not to mention, often wrong in their judgments. It's not a Prius, Smart Car, or the owner themself that matters to people here. It's the smugness that drives people crazy.
It happens with pretty much anyone who's not a white southerner. And they would probably even be somewhat nice to you in person, but after you leave the racial slurs start flying. Or if the customer is simply a white northerner, they'll think of some other obnoxious comments to use. I have no idea how common this is, I can just tell you what I've heard and seen for myself.
Just curious, what kind of business do you work in?
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