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The truth is no one really knows...we are all speculating.
I have my theories just as everyone else has their theories but we have no proof
I think phrasing it that was under represents the reality a little. Nothing you said is technically incorrect per se, but it paints the wrong picture. It makes it sound like it is simply 50:50 and we just do not know.
But the simple fact is that ALL the evidence we have at this time related to human consciousness, awareness, and subjectivity ties it inextricably to the brain. NONE of the evidence we have so far suggests any kind if disconnect between the two of any kind.
Therefore the idea that there is an after life where human subjectivity and awareness continues is not just entirely unsubstantiated, but contradicts what evidence we do currently have.
That is more than "mere speculation" therefore. There is very good reason to expect that death is, just that. Death.
I do not have a "belief" in anything of that sort. But I do study many religions and whatever wisdom they have assimilated along the way. And Buddhism is no exception to this. Religions are certainly a useful vehicle for packaging and selling certain things and there are many things espoused by all of them that do not require one subscribe to ANYTHING on insufficient evidence to benefit from. My knowledge of the Buddist religions, texts and thoughts is extensive, though not as relatively extensive by far as the religions like Christianity and Islam of which I have more direct experience and knowledge and learning.
Location: Central Bay Area, CA as of Jan 2010...but still a proud Texan from Houston!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo
.Therefore the idea that there is an after life where human subjectivity and awareness continues is not just entirely unsubstantiated, but contradicts what evidence we do currently have.
Therefore you have nothing more than speculation. We are saying the same thing differently.
Therefore you have nothing more than speculation. We are saying the same thing differently.
Speculation, the way many people use it, seems to imply to many that we are sitting around engaging in guess work. But when all the evidence points to X and no evidence points to Y... then it is not "mere" speculation to subscribe to X and dismiss Y.
And ALL the evidence links human consciousness and subjectivity to the brain. We do things to the brain, subjectivity changes. We even found recently what the media are calling a brain "off switch". Damage to the brain causes other damages to the awareness and subjectivity of the human. So all this evidence mounts up, and shows us a link between the brain and human consciousness and awareness and subjectivity and so forth.
Now consider all the evidence showing a separation, or the existence of the latter without the former. Actually we can not.... because there simply IS none.
Location: Central Bay Area, CA as of Jan 2010...but still a proud Texan from Houston!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo
Speculation, the way many people use it, seems to imply to many that we are sitting around engaging in guess work. But when all the evidence points to X and no evidence points to Y... then it is not "mere" speculation to subscribe to X and dismiss Y.
And ALL the evidence links human consciousness and subjectivity to the brain. We do things to the brain, subjectivity changes. We even found recently what the media are calling a brain "off switch". Damage to the brain causes other damages to the awareness and subjectivity of the human. So all this evidence mounts up, and shows us a link between the brain and human consciousness and awareness and subjectivity and so forth.
Now consider all the evidence showing a separation, or the existence of the latter without the former. Actually we can not.... because there simply IS none.
Right and we use that conscious awareness to either speculate or believe in our conditionings or our speculations.
I don't view our soul to be the same as our conscious awareness.
I also don't believe our energy just vanishes from the Universe once we die. According to the conservation of energy it shouldn't.
Speculation is forming your own theory without evidence...much like what religion does.
Right and we use that conscious awareness to either speculate or believe in our conditionings or our speculations.
It is not "speculation" itself I am faulting in your rhetoric. Speculation is good. I am faulting the implication, whether you intend it or not, that comes across that we are simply idly speculating on things that could be 50:50 and we really have no idea at all.
Speculation is great, but it needs to be constrained by the data set you are speculating. And currently NOTHING in that data set warrants the speculation that human consciousness or awareness survives the death of the brain. Simply nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TVC15
I also don't believe our energy just vanishes from the Universe once we die. According to the conservation of energy it shouldn't.
Of course it does not. But I am not sure you are coming across as knowing what that means. What particular energy do you think is vanishing or continuing on exactly? We know what energy is in the body and brain, we know how it gets there, we know how it moves around, we know what happens it when you die.
Unless you are speculating about a new form of energy as yet unmeasured or unobserved, I am not sure what you think you are talking about here or what your point actually is?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TVC15
Speculation is forming your own theory without evidence...much like what religion does.
Not in my book. Speculation in my book is observing the evidence you DO have and coming up with explanations for that evidence. That is the opposite of "theory without evidence". It is "Theory based very much ON the evidence".
Location: Central Bay Area, CA as of Jan 2010...but still a proud Texan from Houston!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo
We know what energy is in the body and brain, we know how it gets there, we know how it moves around, we know what happens it when you die.
You have no clue what you are talking about with respect to the energy in our body and how it moves around the brain. It's not all chemicals and synaptic clefts. We don't even really know all there is to dreaming or even why we dream and we are no where near understanding memory and memory recall. We have hardly figured out every single pathway in the brain either.
What do you call unseen energy?
What do you call intuition?
How do you think Lucid Dreaming occurs?
How do you think out of body experiences happen?
How do you think memory is coded in neuronal pathways?
How are memories stored and retrieved?
How do brains visualize the future?
How do brains visualize imaginary?
What is intelligence?
What are emotions?
How does our brain process time?
How does our brain recall memories or knowledge?
Why does the brain require sleep time?
Why do we dream?
There are plenty of unknowns with respect to the energy involved in everything I just listed above. Heck we don't even know how DNA is continuously being synthesized and why it turns off. We don't even know what "junk" DNA's function is. What about miRNA...yep there's another mystery.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo
Not in my book. Speculation in my book is observing the evidence you DO have and coming up with explanations for that evidence. That is the opposite of "theory without evidence". It is "Theory based very much ON the evidence".
How about the book known as the dictionary...will that suffice?
You have no clue what you are talking about with respect to the energy in our body and how it moves around the brain.
You know having a clue what you are talking about does not mean I do not. Actually we are now in the field of bio chemistry and neuro science and I know a hell of a lot more about it than anyone I have met so far on this forum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TVC15
We don't even really know all there is to dreaming or even why we dream and we are no where near understanding memory and memory recall.
Those are entirely different points. You are jumping from topic to topic now to avoid being held down on any. You made a DIRECT comment about the energy in the human body and brain, asking where it "goes" when we die. And I am telling you we know this already. We know how energy gets into the body. We know how it is distributed. We know where it goes when we die.
What you _appear_ to be suggesting is that human subjectivity and consciousness has nothing to do with these energies at all, and there is some other kind of energy that exists and must be accounted for. But you have not established it DOES exist at all.
The list of pointless questions below have nothing to do with the comment you made. You are now asking questions about what is going on in the brain and why it does the things it does. This has NOTHING to do with the original point of what energy is in the brain and where it comes from, and goes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TVC15
How about the book known as the dictionary...will that suffice?
By all means get yourself one, but do not presume to lead us astray by cherry picking ONE definition out of many for a single word and acting like you have made a point.
While faffing about with dictionaries and grammar nazism however you are simply avoiding the point I actually made however. Which is that "speculation" implies that we are simply guessing around the place with no evidence on topics that are 50:50 and all I am telling you is that this is not a true representation of the reality.
The reality is we have plenty of evidence linking the brain and consciousness heavily. We have NO evidence showing any disconnect, or possibility of a disconnect, between the two.
So when we conclude there is no reason to think there is any kind of afterlife after total brain death, we are not just "speculating".... we are making firm conclusions based on the data set.
I consider myself Agnostic when it comes to religion. I'm open-minded.
The possibility of an after-life really intrigues me. What are people's thoughts on the young children that are able to give vibrant details of "past-lives?" If enough research is done, some of these accounts have been verified.
I personally lean toward the side that our spirits/souls do continue in some manner after death. Simply because there are too many accounts of past-lives and paranormal accounts. I personally don't think that many people can make stuff up, but I could be wrong.
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