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while I agree with you in principle about getting hung up on city lines, thats really the only way you can have this debate.
Why is that? Won't it much more sense to talk about dense, walkable areas vs not so dense, less walkable areas? Why should the debate focus on city limits? Unless we're talking about schools which was the OP, but we're off on another topic.
This thread has gone wildly off topic. Maybe this will help.
I met a college student who went through city public schools (Queens, NYC) some days ago. Didn't mention about elementary school or middle school but talked about her high school(s). Spent 6 months in Catholic high school, hated it and left for public school. She then found her local "zoned" school was horrible. Besides having gang troubles, the school had frequent "riots" — periods when groups of students would be so disruptive that 30 minutes of class time was interrupted. The neighborhood is decent, but within the boundaries is the largest single housing project in the city, which she said was the source of most of the troubles ("they had no interest in education"). She lived in a housing project (at least her mother did, parents were divorced) for part of her high school year herself, but one she claimed wasn't so bad. She applied to a much better public high school. (you can enter high schools outside your neighborhood if you score decently on a citywide test) instead. Said if she stayed at that high school she doubts she would have gone to college. She goes back to poor public high schools to talk about going to college.
A little bit confused on the details, but that was the gist I got.
(oops -- thread moves fast! This is in reference to the 5 minutes is 5 minutes post. Should have quoted it directly!)
Ah, but I think there IS a difference between 10 minutes driving and 10 minutes walking, for some people. Clearly many people don't care -- and I'd venture that most Americans don't really care -- and for them, as you note, 5 minutes is 5 minutes.
But for me, there is a big difference. Part of that is that we don't own a car, but even when we did have a car, we preferred not to use it. For our family, a 10 minute drive was a much bigger deal, while a 10, 20, 30 minute walk was a casual thing. That was especially true when our son was still in a stroller. (I know there was some debate about that earlier, but for us, it was much easier to just pop him into the stroller rather than deal with the car)
I think you are right about finding the right fit, but it's not only right fit for stage of life, but also right fit for personal family preferences and lifestyle.
I couldn't go carless, as we drive up to see my parents 2 hours away too often. Anyway, when our kids were babies we had diapers, wipes, change of clothes, etc all stored in the car at all times. To go on a drive, we needed to put the baby(s) in the car seat and the stroller in the back..that was it. Now, which is pretty funny, we still have an extra long sleeve shirts for all the kids in the car, as they get cold in restaurants in hot weather. So, we store the basics in the car (books, crayons, a couple balls, frisbees) for our car adventures, as we frequently make pit stops we didn't plan on going.
I personally don't like driving, but a 5-10 minute drive is really no big deal, in my mind. Relax, and all is good.
Here are the top 2012 Los Angeles County high school API scores. I cribbed this from a not-to-be-mentioned forum:
1. La Canada 942
2. San Marino 940
3. Mira Costa (Manhattan Beach) 913
4. Palos Verdes Peninsula 907
5. Palos Verdes 897
6. Arcadia 895
7. South Pasadena 894
8. Crescenta Valley (La Crescenta) 891
9. Walnut 890
10. Temple City 885
11. El Segundo 883
12. South Torrance 875
13. West Torrance 874
14. Diamond Bar 873
15. Malibu 871
16. Beverly Hills 868
17. Cerritos 868
18. Calabasas 864
19. Keppel (Alhambra) 864
20. Bonita (La Verne) 861
21. Agoura 859
22. Redondo Union 856
23. West Ranch (Valencia) 856
24. Valencia 850
25. Gabrielino (San Gabriel) 841
26. La Serna (Whittier) 839
27. Glendora 837
28. Rowland (Rowland Heights) 835
29. Burbank 831
30. Wilson (La Puente) 830
31. Hart (Valencia) 830
32. Edgewood (West Covina) 829
33. San Dimas 827
34. Burroughs (Burbank) 825
35. Torrance 824
36. Santa Monica 823
37. Culver City 821
38. Saugus (Valencia) 820
39. Claremont 819
40. North Torrance 815
Basically, all of them are high schools in middle-class to upper-class suburban areas... maybe except for Beverly Hills HS and Santa Monica HS--those two are relatively a bit more urban.
Wow, my thread here has gotten a bit unwieldy eh? All of this talk about museums and galleries being the only benefits to walk ability are pure silliness.
We can walk to 4 playgrounds within 0.5 miles from our house. Every one of them is full of kids every day. When we visit friends in the suburbs, the local playground is empty because kids stay in their yard. Nothing wrong with that, but we prefer the social aspect of a playground to a private yard (though we do have a small yard with swings too). Last night we did our post-dinner walk around the block. It was completely dark out, but we have well-lit sidewalks everywhere, making it easy to get our even on dark nights. Try that on a cul-de-sac with one street lamp.
Regarding the comment about kids not enjoying a street festival like Honk, all I can say is, wow, now I understand why some people just don't see things the same way. The kids absolutely loved the parade and the music the preceded it. They were dancing in the square with other kids, there were people dressed in all kinds of amusing consumes, riding unicycles and other crazy bikes. It was by far the highlight of their weekend.
To be honest, I think alot if urban parents are more outgoing, more adamant about trying to immerse their kids in things on a daily basis. Suburban parents tend to think a safe cul-de-sac with a yard and a park are all a kid needs and wouldn't take advantage of the city even if they did live there. To each their own I suppose.
The other thing is that some people just love walking - its something that becomes addicting once you experience the lifestyle, and once you get used to it, getting in a car seems stifling.
To be honest, I think alot if urban parents are more outgoing, more adamant about trying to immerse their kids in things on a daily basis. Suburban parents tend to think a safe cul-de-sac with a yard and a park are all a kid needs and wouldn't take advantage of the city even if they did live there.
Wow, this thread has really taken off since I left to get my blood drawn at a SUBURBAN hospital lab then went to a friend's house in the SUBURBS of Boulder to do some quilting for the local teen parenting program and Lutheran World Relief. Now I know many of you urbanites will accuse me of lying, as you have done in the past, b/c suburbanites can't do these things, especially get together in each other's houses for any reason whatsoever, let alone to do things for others. I have multiquoted a lot of posts; I'll break it up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81
More than one, gauging the responses from this thread.
There weren't too many places I couldn't go as a suburban kid. The bus took me downtown and to the farther-flung shopping centers and movie theaters, everywhere the kids in the city could go. I walked or rode my bike to school, to friends' houses, to our suburban Main Street and nearby shopping plazas, to church youth group, or to my after-school jobs. School buses took us to athletic events in neighboring districts. After I took the bus downtown, I could catch a ferry to the beach. Bumming a ride from Dad was a convenience (or his insistence) rather than a necessity.
The buses and ferries still run same -- I think there's more bus service now, actually, going more places, and a new trolley route -- so the transportation options have not changed for kids living where I grew up.
Ferries, wow!
Quote:
Originally Posted by chet everett;26530980[B
]...is the assumption that 'density' by itself is even a good thing -- [/b]for crying out loud you don't need to go to the extreme of failed high rise urban project to find out that quality of life is not at all correlated with just density. There are crummy "market rate" apartments owned by private landlords that are just as dense as projects and some of them are terrible, it ain't just "slum lord" type apartment either -- the wrong of residents can make higher density apartments a nightmare.
And then you also have examples of densely built high end apartments / condos in nicer suburbs or posh spots inside big cities that are quite lovely for some residents but far from ideal for people with large pets that need exercise, families with active children, and even folks like musicians or artisans whose work creates loud sounds that travel through even well constructed walls.
Of course in the context of which area is "naturally better for education" there is obviously no winner to be found simply on the basis of density -- either environment could be beneficial to children of differnce talents / temperament and the opposite is true as well: kids dropped into the wrong environment will flounder.
One thing that is becoming increasingly clear, however, is that pretty much without exception the adminstrative / leadership roles that are needed to effectively lead schools to high levels of success do NOT scale up well at all. While individual principals can often have some positive effects on one school and some mid-sized districts do benefit greatly from strong leaders there are NO truly large monolithic citywide urban school districts that are being uniformly led well. I think this has a lot to do with the relative success of affluent school districts which, even when they serve many students in a moderate number of schools (a Humber of about a dozen or so seems relatively easy to manage) still remain strongly tied to the input / influence of success oriented parents. As the number of schools in a political unit grows the odds of success decline. Getting much past fifty or so high performing schools is a rarity. I don't think this just about affluence either. If one looks to a very differnent kind of organization it also seems there are limits to sustaining high performance -- the size of organizations in diverse segments of the adult world seem to have limits to scale as well -- how many people can say they are a Navy Seal? How many locations can a well run (and not particually luxury oriented) retailer like The Container Store keep focused? How many congregations can a dynamic religous ministry sustain before splitting into sub-units?
The "urbanists" ought to give more thought to blowing up their monolithic bueracratic school management structures and accept the fact that different sized units of both leadership and even financial accountability need to be pursued and the dreams of "savings through consolidation and shared common services" are simply not worth the horrendous side effects of far too many children being horribly miserved in effectively organized districts.
RE: the bold- Yes. Density is "celebrated" throughout this forum. Some examples:
Cherry-picked? I'm sorry, aside from the 20 square block center, there is a large number of surrounding suburban development that swirls and sprawls. Is there not? In other words, there's a large number of non-walkable areas in your own city that do not fit the description of where you live (sounds like you live in the core). This has to be factored into the discussion, does it not?
Also, sidewalks do not provide walkability in and of themselves. You can surely walk to a park or walk to a neighbor, but it doesn't mean it's a truly walkable neighborhood if there aren't a variety of amenities within convenient walking distance. This is the point.
While your community (central Louisville, CO) is a good example of what you typed above, there are many places that are not....again, even within the suburbs of your city. Again, this has to be factored in.
And how did you find your area to highlight? I'll bet is was this: Look at the city, find an area you think looks like sprawl. You wouldn't have automatically googled Church Lane, Louisville, that's for sure.
I do not live in "the core".
Why do sidewalks not provide walkability? Why do you have to be able to stop in at an art gallery on your way to the park, or buy a bicycle or even a cup of coffee? Why is it not OK to just be able to walk to the park?
I find the "suburbs of Louisville" comment laughable. This is a town of 18,000 people. It's not that big.
Quote:
Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist
That's why, generally speaking, I think it makes a lot more sense to talk about "urban" and "suburban" locations (although I know people don't like that terminology, either) as opposed to getting hung up about city lines. So for the people who say "I can walk to everything I need -- grocery stores, doctors, library, pharmacy, restaurants, dentist, etc. -- within a 10-15 minute radius in my suburb", well, I think those are a totally different form than, say, the modern American subdivision. Just like I don't think people are envisioning a really sleepy city neighborhood filled with mostly single family homes and not much else to be their vision of "urban."
I completely disagree. I don't know what you think the modern American subdivision is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJNEOA
Excellent point. Many people don't care about a drive vs. a walk. That's fine, but it seems we argue that the experience is the same thing. I find walking far less stressful and an extension of my leisure time, whereas, there are many people who like driving.
In any event, they are not the same experience. I hated driving as a kid, but always loved walking from place to place. The other important point is that you have to have a license and a car in order to drive. To walk, you only need legs.
Enough of the "my unhappy childhood that would habe been better had I lived in the city" stuff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei
This thread has gone wildly off topic. Maybe this will help.
I met a college student who went through city public schools (Queens, NYC) some days ago. Didn't mention about elementary school or middle school but talked about her high school(s). Spent 6 months in Catholic high school, hated it and left for public school. She then found her local "zoned" school was horrible. Besides having gang troubles, the school had frequent "riots" — periods when groups of students would be so disruptive that 30 minutes of class time was interrupted. The neighborhood is decent, but within the boundaries is the largest single housing project in the city, which she said was the source of most of the troubles ("they had no interest in education"). She lived in a housing project (at least her mother did, parents were divorced) for part of her high school year herself, but one she claimed wasn't so bad. She applied to a much better public high school. (you can enter high schools outside your neighborhood if you score decently on a citywide test) instead. Said if she stayed at that high school she doubts she would have gone to college. She goes back to poor public high schools to talk about going to college.
A little bit confused on the details, but that was the gist I got.
I think I said earlier, the cities have to do something to reclaim their schools. Many cities let their schools "go to H*ll in a handbasket".
Wow, my thread here has gotten a bit unwieldy eh? All of this talk about museums and galleries being the only benefits to walk ability are pure silliness.
We can walk to 4 playgrounds within 0.5 miles from our house. Every one of them is full of kids every day. When we visit friends in the suburbs, the local playground is empty because kids stay in their yard. Nothing wrong with that, but we prefer the social aspect of a playground to a private yard (though we do have a small yard with swings too). Last night we did our post-dinner walk around the block. It was completely dark out, but we have well-lit sidewalks everywhere, making it easy to get our even on dark nights. Try that on a cul-de-sac with one street lamp.
Regarding the comment about kids not enjoying a street festival like Honk, all I can say is, wow, now I understand why some people just don't see things the same way. The kids absolutely loved the parade and the music the preceded it. They were dancing in the square with other kids, there were people dressed in all kinds of amusing consumes, riding unicycles and other crazy bikes. It was by far the highlight of their weekend.
To be honest, I think alot if urban parents are more outgoing, more adamant about trying to immerse their kids in things on a daily basis. Suburban parents tend to think a safe cul-de-sac with a yard and a park are all a kid needs and wouldn't take advantage of the city even if they did live there. To each their own I suppose.The other thing is that some people just love walking - its something that becomes addicting once you experience the lifestyle, and once you get used to it, getting in a car seems stifling.
RE: the bolds. Stop witht the sanctimony! As an aside, your kids must be older than I thought.
I think I said earlier, the cities have to do something to reclaim their schools. Many cities let their schools "go to H*ll in a handbasket".
With the entirety of a middle class residing outside of the city, it isn't easy.
Just to be clear, since sometimes it isn't, I'm talking about my own, and others like it.
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