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No, that would be light rail, followed by transit buses. Cars follow that. (Transit buses are probably actually even worse than that, due to their circuity)
Do you think cars are free? What about the gas, insurance and maintenance costs to run them?
None of that is free either.
In terms of the total cost to consumers and taxpayers, the costs of automobiles and their infrastructure far exceed the costs of any form of public transportation.
Do you think cars are free? What about the gas, insurance and maintenance costs to run them?
None of that is free either.
In terms of the total cost to consumers and taxpayers, the costs of automobiles and their infrastructure far exceed the costs of any form of public transportation.
These lists are always filled with messages from those who have found truth.
These lists are always filled with messages from those who have found truth.
Cite your source. One with real numbers.
Why are we talking about cars now? this thread is supposed to be about alternatives to the car.
who the heck wants to drive from LA to SF (or vice versa) in a car anyway. that's a brutal 10 hour trip, 400 miles each way and 800 miles round trip. its a truly miserable experience sitting in a car for 10 hours especially in the summer with the 100 degree California sun beating down on you. and that LA traffic is just murder. I'd rather take a high speed train that could get me there quickly and comfortably in two to three hours and without the hassles of driving or flying.
$31,115 over five years is the "true cost to own" that Ford Focus.
$6,223 per year.
In relation to minimum wage ($7.25 / hour), that expense computes to 41% of gross wages. If one earns double minimum wage, that's 20.6% of pre-tax gross wages. In that case, one will be working 1/5 their life to "support" their habit. If one works from 18 to 70 (assuming later age of retirement), the automobile costs them over TEN YEARS of labor.
Consider your own automobile budget. Do you spend 20 - 30% of your net income on your automobile?
Of the 2.27 million miles of paved road in the US, 94% is surfaced with asphalt, including 65% of the interstate system.
In Florida, asphalt pavement cost $544,981 to concrete's $765,729 per lane-mile.
Extrapolating that cost to 2.27 million miles, the nation spent $ 1,237,106,870,000.
$1.2 TRILLION for asphalt pavement - more if for concrete pavement.
(Ignoring multilane roads and their multiplying factor to the cost)
If a road repavement schedule is every 3 years, the public subsidy of pavement is roughly $412 Billion each year... $1,347 per capita. (This is spread around, via assessments, fuel taxes, and other covert means)
[] Beyond the obvious - the cost for owning, operating, and maintaining an auto, the building and maintaining of highway infrastructure, and the embedded cost for buying, refining, transporting, and selling petroleum, what ELSE would be adversely affected if there were suddenly no automobiles?
[] Establishments that do retail sales of fuel : _ MiniMarts _ Convenience Stores _ Gas stations
The USA had 128,887 filling stations (gas stations) in 2007 according to the Census
If the average station costs $500,000 to build, that represents:
$64.4 billion
If each station has to generate a profit equivalent to 10% of its cost each year, we can infer:
$6.4 billion in profit.
If that profit is on the sale of 17 million barrels / day (or 6.2 billion barrels / year)
We’re looking at roughly $1 / barrel profit margin for the retailers.
[] Manufacturers and distributors of replacement parts, tires, batteries, as well as the industries and enterprises dependent upon them.
[] Retail outlets that are dependent upon millions of car owners to reach them
[] Car Washes, Independent Repair Shops and Towing Operators.
Manta - Big finds from small businesses
Manta has 55,320 companies under Carwashes businesses in United States
If each car wash business cost $250,000 to build, that’s $13.8 billion
Manta lists 969,012 U.S. companies matching "auto repair shops"
If each repair shop costs $750,000 to build, that’s $726 billion
Manta lists 512,603 U.S. companies matching "auto towing"
If each towing company costs
[] Motels / hotels that cater to automobile and truck travelers.
Manta has 53,272 U.S. companies matching "motels"
Manta has 784,257 U.S. companies matching "automobile sales"
Manta has 186,199 U.S. companies matching "oil driller"
Manta has 2,706 U.S. companies matching "pavement"
Manta has 49,962 U.S. companies matching "drive through"
............
It may be reasonable to estimate that 20 - 40% of the GDP is linked, directly or indirectly, to the automobile / petroleum / highway paradigm.
And it is a BIG drain, too.
Why are we talking about cars now? this thread is supposed to be about alternatives to the car.
who the heck wants to drive from LA to SF (or vice versa) in a car anyway. that's a brutal 10 hour trip, 400 miles each way and 800 miles round trip. its a truly miserable experience sitting in a car for 10 hours especially in the summer with the 100 degree California sun beating down on you. and that LA traffic is just murder. I'd rather take a high speed train that could get me there quickly and comfortably in two to three hours and without the hassles of driving or flying.
That is called a duck. It likely indicates that you have nothing to corroborate your view or you checked and found the data does not support your view.
I did that commute about once a week for five years. If you could work it so I could do it door to door...LA airport area to Palo Alto in under 3 hours for less than airline fair I can see a winner. That does not appear to be the present proposal.
For four or five years I regularly did the drive from Las Vegas to Long Beach. If HSR could do that trip in a couple of hours door to door for less than $125 round trip with extensive luggage I would have done that. But That does not appear to be likely under any scenario either. When we go to Long Beach we have equipment and luggage...so we drive rather than fly.
HSR at this point seems to be a solution that is looking for a problem...I don't think there is one that fits.
$31,115 over five years is the "true cost to own" that Ford Focus.
$6,223 per year.
In relation to minimum wage ($7.25 / hour), that expense computes to 41% of gross wages. If one earns double minimum wage, that's 20.6% of pre-tax gross wages. In that case, one will be working 1/5 their life to "support" their habit. If one works from 18 to 70 (assuming later age of retirement), the automobile costs them over TEN YEARS of labor.
Consider your own automobile budget. Do you spend 20 - 30% of your net income on your automobile?
Of the 2.27 million miles of paved road in the US, 94% is surfaced with asphalt, including 65% of the interstate system.
In Florida, asphalt pavement cost $544,981 to concrete's $765,729 per lane-mile.
Extrapolating that cost to 2.27 million miles, the nation spent $ 1,237,106,870,000.
$1.2 TRILLION for asphalt pavement - more if for concrete pavement.
(Ignoring multilane roads and their multiplying factor to the cost)
If a road repavement schedule is every 3 years, the public subsidy of pavement is roughly $412 Billion each year... $1,347 per capita. (This is spread around, via assessments, fuel taxes, and other covert means)
[] Beyond the obvious - the cost for owning, operating, and maintaining an auto, the building and maintaining of highway infrastructure, and the embedded cost for buying, refining, transporting, and selling petroleum, what ELSE would be adversely affected if there were suddenly no automobiles?
[] Establishments that do retail sales of fuel : _ MiniMarts _ Convenience Stores _ Gas stations
The USA had 128,887 filling stations (gas stations) in 2007 according to the Census
If the average station costs $500,000 to build, that represents:
$64.4 billion
If each station has to generate a profit equivalent to 10% of its cost each year, we can infer:
$6.4 billion in profit.
If that profit is on the sale of 17 million barrels / day (or 6.2 billion barrels / year)
We’re looking at roughly $1 / barrel profit margin for the retailers.
[] Manufacturers and distributors of replacement parts, tires, batteries, as well as the industries and enterprises dependent upon them.
[] Retail outlets that are dependent upon millions of car owners to reach them
[] Car Washes, Independent Repair Shops and Towing Operators.
Manta - Big finds from small businesses
Manta has 55,320 companies under Carwashes businesses in United States
If each car wash business cost $250,000 to build, that’s $13.8 billion
Manta lists 969,012 U.S. companies matching "auto repair shops"
If each repair shop costs $750,000 to build, that’s $726 billion
Manta lists 512,603 U.S. companies matching "auto towing"
If each towing company costs
[] Motels / hotels that cater to automobile and truck travelers.
Manta has 53,272 U.S. companies matching "motels"
Manta has 784,257 U.S. companies matching "automobile sales"
Manta has 186,199 U.S. companies matching "oil driller"
Manta has 2,706 U.S. companies matching "pavement"
Manta has 49,962 U.S. companies matching "drive through"
............
It may be reasonable to estimate that 20 - 40% of the GDP is linked, directly or indirectly, to the automobile / petroleum / highway paradigm.
And it is a BIG drain, too.
A very nice exposition on the size and importance of the auto industry.
That is however our starting point. The question is whether other forms of transportation on top of the existing set could provide better performance at lower cost.
I do not believe the technology is breaking in that direction. It appears to me that allowing relatively high speed automotive transport using dedicated lanes may provide a solution that better meets the problem. For instance reasonably mild levels of automation might allow robot cars to do the trip from LA to San Francisco at 120 mph That is pretty close to being competitive with the airline door to door. And smart use of two lanes in each direction would allow mixed speed traffic.
That is called a duck. It likely indicates that you have nothing to corroborate your view or you checked and found the data does not support your view.
Lol not really. But it does indicate that you have don't have a good argument for the hyperloop so you try to change the subject to cars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lvoc
For four or five years I regularly did the drive from Las Vegas to Long Beach. If HSR could do that trip in a couple of hours door to door for less than $125 round trip with extensive luggage I would have done that. But That does not appear to be likely under any scenario either. When we go to Long Beach we have equipment and luggage...so we drive rather than fly.
HSR at this point seems to be a solution that is looking for a problem...I don't think there is one that fits.
I think you need to recheck your math. If HSR can go between LA to SF (a 400 mile trip) in 2 hours 30 minutes than it could certainly go between Long Beach and Las Vegas, a much shorter trip at 280 miles, in under two hours. Sure beats the four+ hour trip by car in the sweltering desert heat.
Lol not really. But it does indicate that you have don't have a good argument for the hyperloop so you try to change the subject to cars.
I think you need to recheck your math. If HSR can go between LA to SF (a 400 mile trip) in 2 hours 30 minutes than it could certainly go between Long Beach and Las Vegas, a much shorter trip at 280 miles, in under two hours. Sure beats the four+ hour trip by car in the sweltering desert heat.
Who tolds you I back Hyperloop? It is an interesting concept but has no practical reality. Be interesting to see a prototype.
And you don't understand how this works. HSR leaves me in the sticks or downtown LA. Collect gear Get a hertz drive to Long Beach...over 4 hours. Can drive it quicker from home. And I don't need a hertz car to get there and then get rid of.
And you should really check out air conditioning. Done that trip over 50 times and never once sweltered.
And you don't understand how this works. HSR leaves me in the sticks or downtown LA. Collect gear Get a hertz drive to Long Beach...over 4 hours. Can drive it quicker from home. And I don't need a hertz car to get there and then get rid of.
It's 24 miles from LA to Long Beach, a 30 minute drive in good traffic not two hours. I think you're exaggerating. But since good traffic is rare in the LA area I'd say about an hour drive. I doubt it ever takes two hours to drive 24 miles, even in LA. Unless there's an accident or something blocking the freeway.
Air conditioning helps but when its a 100 degrees in the middle of August, a car AC often isn't strong enough to overcome the extreme heat and humidity and it gets uncomfortable on long distance trips.
It's 24 miles from LA to Long Beach, a 30 minute drive in good traffic not two hours. I think you're exaggerating. But since good traffic is rare in the LA area I'd say about an hour drive. I doubt it ever takes two hours to drive 24 miles, even in LA.
Air conditioning helps but when its a 100 degrees in the middle of August, a car AC often isn't strong enough to overcome the extreme heat and humidity and it gets uncomfortable on long distance trips.
Do you travel much? Clearing any transportation mode with luggage and getting a rent-a-car can be expected to take an hour anywhere in the world. A pro who regularly does an airport and belongs to the right arrangements can do it in 15 minutes..but that is without checked luggage and requires enough familiarity with an airport that they know who you are.
And after we get to the boat in Long Beach we have this car which we have to get rid of or spend 25 a day to keep. And getting from Downtown LA to Long Beach can easily run 1 and 1/2 hours. Actually getting from LAX to the Long Beach Freeway can easily run an hour. That is what 7 miles?
We live all summer long in an environment where the daily high is over 100 degrees. AC works fine. You simply don't understand...it does not get difficult on long trips...it just gets boring.
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