[square peg]

So why do folks leave any state? They've been there long enough to know that it isn't offering what they want or need with regard to income, education, climate or personal taste. Maybe it's about a fresh start. What brings people to a certain place can be measured about the same I would think. BTW, my house is white and needs painting. Maybe yellow next year - possibly green, but it'll be my call.

[Amy K]

My husband grew up in VT and spent the first few years of undergrad up at Castleton. We meet down in NC and then moved back to VT for him to go to NECI (New England Culinary Inst). I decided to move to VT after visiting in Oct--I was dupped! We lived in VT for 4 years before finally moving back to NC. My sister-in-law and her family still live there and own a few PT practices. Anyway...we decided to stay in VT for a while despite the lack of jobs (I have a B.S. in education and couldn't find a job, so I had to do something else to live) and low pay. It was the fact that we couldn't afford a house anywhere close to our jobs that finally pushed us over the edge. The housing market is terrible for the amount of money you can make. My husband was commuting to Waterbury VT, while I worked in Colchester. We considered renting in Barre just to have more space. The lack of sun was also a problem for me (along with the lack of lawn for 1/2 of the year), but I dealt with that. VT is a safe place to be (as long as you avoid the heroin infested areas of Burlington--they have a HUGE problem with heroin in VT). The school systems are supposed to be the best (I have a slightly different opinion after working in several of the best and worse schools) too. If you are a liberal environmentalist, you should be fine. If you are ok with no sun and no warm weather (it rains for most of the summer), you should be fine. If you have tons of money to spend on a house that needs repairs each spring, you should be fine. The point: VT is a beautiful state with a beautiful fall, nice ski slopes, preserved lands, down to earth people (the natives), and a local focus on the restaurant industry. If you are coming to VT to enjoy the nature around you, and meet new friends, you might be slightly disappointed. Most ppl keep to themselves during the winter months. Brattleboro isn't the most "happening" place in VT. If you don't take advantage of the winter weather outdoors, it's a bust.

My husband and I consider moving back to VT everytime we visit our family. All we have to do is open a real estate mag to realize that it's just a dream. We enjoy owning a house and having a yard for our two big dogs. I miss the holistic veterinarians, organic gardening, and local produce. Instead of moving back, we just get our friends to move down south. So far, so good!

[arel]

Your post is something to think about. Thank you.

What is the most "happening" place? I imagine the answer is Burlington.

What are you referring to when you say "happening"?

Do others have similar stories? What kinds of repairs are needed every spring, in general? Or did you have a house that was particularly vulnerable to the effects of winter?

Maybe a condo is a better deal, as long as I have the freedom to keep my pets. That way the owner takes care of the costs of repairs, assuming that is what the agreement is.

If I make the move, of course I want to meet new people. I plan to do so by participating in group activities of interest and meeting people that way. In my admittedly limited experience in Brattleboro, I have found people to be friendly and encouraging. I did feel uncomfortable in a luncheonette in rural New Hampshire once (20 years ago). I felt out of place and a bit unwelcome. But rural New Hampshire is culturally different from southeastern Vermont, from what I have read and experienced.

Also, by leaving New York, I would hope to reduce my cost of living and make some money. I have been warned about potential financial disappointment in Vermont, and I am concerned. But some people have been very encouraging, including people in my profession. (I can work at a job or independently, in a solo or group practice, which gives me some flexibility.)

Yet, there are reasons why where I live now is so crowded and why Vermont is so uncrowded.

[mels]

I have to disagree with Amy K, it certainly doesn’t rain most of the summer unless it is a rare terribly rainy summer, which happens from time to time. It certainly isn’t normal. I also don’t understand why a house in VT would need to be repaired every Spring unless it was in rough shape to begin with.

I moved to VT from Connecticut, so I was accustomed to 4 seasons, having “no lawn” for the winter/early spring months, etc. If you are from anywhere in the northeast, or anywhere that has a real winter for that matter, most weather conditions shouldn’t be shocking. Winter can be very cold, summer can bring a few awfully humid days. It is pretty much the way it is in the entire northeast corridor. Same thing with cost of living, I moved from CT, so prices weren’t exactly a shock to me.

Burlington is definitely the most “happening” place in VT, namely because it is the largest city and has the influence of UVM. They have the restaurants, night life, culture, live music, etc. As for the attitude, I find most people in all of the northeast to be guarded-friendly. We aren’t in your face fake friendly, but we warm up quickly once we know you.

Back top the topic, I left Vermont for a lack of mobility in my career. There are very few companies that are in my field there, and the place I worked just didn’t have that room for advancement that I was looking for. It was one of those deals where you wait for someone to die or retire, so I moved on.

I still love VT and pay a couple visits every year. I wouldn’t move back only because of the lack of opportunities in my career.

[Amy K]

I lived in VT for 4 years (2000-2004) and the entire time I lived there, it was a rainy summer. I grew up in the Mnts of NC and went to school in the higher mountains of NC where we had....ta-da: ski slopes. So, I am used to gray weather for a large part of the winter, the 4 seasons, and snowy cold weather. The dew point is actually higher in the NC mountains than VT, so the 32 degrees in NC feels colder than 32 degrees in VT. As far as repairs are concerned, I rented all of my "homes" and didn't have to do the work myself. The places I lived in weren't in rouch shape (I lived in a custom built 3 story home my last year in VT). I suppose people say that spring is spent repairing is because it's too cold to do repairs during the colder months. Anyone who owns a home knows that there are maintance items that must be dealt with throughout the year. If you aren't up for those certain things, owning a condo might be the best bet.

True Vermonters are friendly people. They do take a while to warm up and will give you the shirt off their back if you asked. (Southerns aren't "fake" Mels, just because they hold the door open and say "hi" when you walk past them).

Burlington would be the "happening" place. I lived over in the Essex Junction/Essex area too and found there was a lot going on in the area/surrounding areas. Brattleboro is just a little removed from the shopping, good restaurants, and extras. It was originally the town for the state mental institution.

I do agree with Mels in that there aren't a lot of opportunites for advancement. VT is a very close knit community and they aren't as willing to let an outsider into a new position if there is a local who can do the job. The school community is notorious for this--if you aren't a relative, didn't do your student teaching at that school, or didn't attend that school as a child, you might as well chose another state (or career). I worked in social work instead. The state is well known for the social work programs. You would probably have a lot of options in several areas in VT with your line of work.

As long as you are used to the cold weather, become involved with local groups/sports, and don't find you have sticker shock at the real estate, VT should be fine. It seems you have a lot of options as far as career work, so that's the largest problem solved! You might consider communting to Brattleboro and living in another area in order to have a larger community. The smaller communities might not offer the involvment you desire.

VT is a great place to raise a family. If you have the opportunity, take a short trip to VT to check out the other adjoining towns. It is a beautiful state!

[arel]

I happen to be a social worker, specifically a licensed clinical social worker, which basically means a licensed psychotherapist. It is very encouraging to hear that there are lots of social work programs. I have researched some in the area. I was originally attracted to Brattleboro because of the Retreat (the mental hosptial). I used to be very interested in an area of work for which they had a program. They don't have that program anymore, I don't think.

Interestingly, Rhode Island is, or was, one of the top states in the country for mental health services. Not bad for the state that has been described as the most corrupt in the country.

I think some people would say that stuff is "happening" in Brattleboro. A friend who lives there says there is always something to do. There are galleries, plays, concerts, etc. and even contra-dancing, which I have never seen in New York. I'm sure Burlington has more going on, simply because of its size and the presence of the University, but Brattleboro is closer to the Pioneer Valley, the Upper Valley and, gulp, New York. It is diverse, cosmopolitan and community-minded. It reminds me a little bit of Greenwich Village in Manhattan, New York's "bohemian" area. It also seems a bit like a throwbackto the 60's.

Maybe I'll eventually move to Burlington, though. I would like being so close to Montreal and I would like to see a champ. But first I need to get out of Brooklyn.

By the way, years ago, I considered attending graduate school at the University of Vermont. The professor I talked to was surprisingly rude and hostile, and at the time that turned me off to the place. But I'm not going to hold that against the city.

[leedspaddy]

Originally Posted by arel

I happen to be a social worker, specifically a licensed clinical social worker, which basically means a licensed psychotherapist. It is very encouraging to hear that there are lots of social work programs. I have researched some in the area. I was originally attracted to Brattleboro because of the Retreat (the mental hosptial). I used to be very interested in an area of work for which they had a program. They don't have that program anymore, I don't think.

Interestingly, Rhode Island is, or was, one of the top states in the country for mental health services. Not bad for the state that has been described as the most corrupt in the country.

I think some people would say that stuff is "happening" in Brattleboro. A friend who lives there says there is always something to do. There are galleries, plays, concerts, etc. and even contra-dancing, which I have never seen in New York. I'm sure Burlington has more going on, simply because of its size and the presence of the University, but Brattleboro is closer to the Pioneer Valley, the Upper Valley and, gulp, New York. It is diverse, cosmopolitan and community-minded. It reminds me a little bit of Greenwich Village in Manhattan, New York's "bohemian" area. It also seems a bit like a throwbackto the 60's.

Maybe I'll eventually move to Burlington, though. I would like being so close to Montreal and I would like to see a champ. But first I need to get out of Brooklyn.

By the way, years ago, I considered attending graduate school at the University of Vermont. The professor I talked to was surprisingly rude and hostile, and at the time that turned me off to the place. But I'm not going to hold that against the city.

Look, I live in VT and to be honest it has been a disaster since day one when we moved here back in 2004 simply because there is nothing here in the way of jobs and now I am faced with the prospect of being stuck with a house I can't sell and working in another state because I simply can't afford to live here and I have a good salary. There is no point taking any one person's opinion regarding moving to VT because everyone is different. My advice is come here and find out for yourself, but come here with a get-out clause. By this I mean, you ought to rent and not buy so if VT turns out to be not what you want then you can escape easier than if you buy a house. I am currently looking in Mass for jobs which is a lot more expensive to live than VT but it has a lot more jobs and jobs that actually pay salaries that are closer to the cost of living than you would get in VT.

[arel]

I've read many of your posts, Leedspaddy, and I am sorry that you have had such a hard time in Vermont. Your posts are valuable and instructive, though, and your advice could prevent others from ending up in the same difficult position.

I agree with your advice to rent before buying, so as to have a way to escape if things don't work out. I've seen several houses online in Brattleboro which have been on the market forever. But I've also seen houses that have disappeared within weeks. My challenge with rentals is to find one that will accept my 5 cats.

Would you be able to rent your house out while you rented or bought elsewhere?

Regarding Massachusetts, Brattleboro is within easy commuting distance of western Massachusetts. Years ago, I checked out pay in social service agencies near Amherst and it stank. Also, Brattleboro is just a Connecticut River bridge away from New Hampshire, and within easy commuting distance of Keene.

If you work in Massachusetts and live in Vermont, do you have to pay two state income taxes?

Social work salaries stink everywhere. If I leave New York, I'll probably be faced with even lower salaries than they pay here. But at least I have the option of private practice, in addition to jobs. And social work skills are transferable to some other areas. Social work, and social workers, tend to be devalued and disrespected - largely because social work is traditionally dominated by women - but social workers have valuable skill sets that are useful in a variety of contexts.

But I do have financial concerns about moving to Vermont. Long-term finances, winter driving on hilly roads, not fitting in, not being comfortable and regret are the things that are daunting to me.

[vter]

There was an interesting article in the Burlington Free Press today about housing costs. It'll give you an idea as to what to expect and also maybe answer your "Why Do People Leave Vermont" question. Some folks just can't afford it!
http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/a...12/1009&theme=

[loriv]

Arel, see my posting to your other chat about flatlanders. If I were you, I would skip Brattleboro and move to Burlington.

Ditto on all the Vermont critiques...After living in DC for seven years, I can't bear the thought of having another sunless winter. It's too cruel and hard on body and soul. I have been gone now for ten years and I only miss it when I'm there visiting. It's a beautiful place, but with three months of nice weather, three months of mud, and a guaranteed six months of snow, thank you, but I'm out....

The economy is a difficult. Act 250 led both of my parents (who were involved in the real estate community) to move after 35 years. Vermont is special if you have your own vocation. If you want to be another Ben and Jerry, Burton Snowboards, or Otter Creek Brewery, your day has arrived!!! But if you are a small business owner, you can forget about it. Taxes, property and income, are high, and the love of the status quo prevails. If you want progressive, Brattleboro and Burlington might be what you are looking for, but be warned that planting one's roots in Vermont comes at a price. My parents moved to VT to give us a great lifestyle, and they succeeded. I have very happy memories of walking to the bus stop in mud season with my sister, jumping in leaf piles in the fall, and building snowmen in several feet of fresh snow when school was cancelled. But to be an adult in VT has a different meaning.

I don't want to scare you, because it is a special place, but just go with realistic expectations.

Best of luck!