[jmcf41]

I am dying to leave vermont . I want to move down south to the Carolina's. There is not much good about this place. As alot of people have said, the taxes are out of control, Jobs and decent pay are hard to come by and the winters are to damn long. Not to mention you don't see the sun all that often.

[luv80s]

Just moved to Vermont and I'm ready to leave this place. Yes, the scenery is absolutely beautiful and the people I have met are more friendly than I could ever imagine. But its boring here. So there are alot of outdoors and winter things to do, if you like that sort of stuff but I could take it or leave it. We just moved here from a big city and we have to stay here at least 2 years for my hubbys job. I can't wait for those two years to be up. I don't like the long winter and the small town feel. I hate having to drive 20-something miles just to go to Best Buy or Walmart. Also, the housing prices here are ridiculous! For what you pay, you sure don't get a whole lot. I don't see how anyone can afford to live here. Thank goodness we made the smart move to just rent first otherwise we'd be broke on our butts.

I know, I know...I need to take my citygirl butt and move back to where I came from. Two years...two years...I can survive until then

[ab8mi]

I am reading some of these posts and I am not sure where you all come from originally but some of the complaints from people that have moved there and right away want to leave amaze me.

First didn't you do any research on the available amenities, social life, etc, VT is after all the 2nd least populous state in the union. As for housing prices unless you came up from the south or maybe West Virginia, they are very reasonable compared to the Midwest, the West Coast or many other places in New England.

And for those coming from the South, guess what the further North that you go the more likely there is to be snow, amazing yes but still true.

Again research would have told you about the taxes and wages in these areas. Sorry for the bit of a rant but sometimes commonsense isn't so common.

[KoZmiC NinJa]

Originally Posted by ab8mi

I am reading some of these posts and I am not sure where you all come from originally but some of the complaints from people that have moved there and right away want to leave amaze me.

First didn't you do any research on the available amenities, social life, etc, VT is after all the 2nd least populous state in the union..

Im one of those losers
In my / our defense, we did do all of that stuff you mention.
In our case, it was a few other reasons one cant prepare for
piled onto this stuff that determined it for us.
The problem is, someone from another area cant comprehend the
total dearth of the afformentioned items. You cannot describe
the total lack of stuff to do, amenities etc, to someone from a
moderately populated area. They wouldnt believe you. As for the
job stuff, we factored in the hit we would take but again, due to
not having anything to compare it to, someone else might not be
able put it into perspective not ever having been in an area like
this, before. Only someone from West Virginia might be able to
understand how bad this stuff might be.
You can read about it, do the math etc, but it will still be different
when you get here and are 5 months into the winter sitting at your
desk and doing your bills

[seanpecor]

Originally Posted by ab8mi

As for housing prices unless you came up from the south or maybe West Virginia, they are very reasonable compared to the Midwest, the West Coast or many other places in New England.

Oh that's so not true from where I'm standing. I'm a Vermonter transplanted to the Roanoke, Virginia area by choice and I'm pretty savvy with regard to real estate and such so I have to jump in and offer up some opinion, for what it's worth.

Vermont real estate prices in the upscale market are easily as expensive as the most expensive areas in the country. I was just looking through Sotheby's Northeast Equestrian catalog which covers equestrian estates from North Carolina to Vermont. Vermont nearly dominates the magazine with properties scattered all over the state that are on the market for $2M or more. Vermont is both gifted and cursed with a very beautiful summer, much like a Maine summer. This draws extremely affluent families from all over the country to buy a 2nd home in VT and this pressures up prices substantially. I'm certain the same thing is going on in the standard housing market as well. In fact I know people personally who have paid $400,000 or more for quaint farmhouses that become second homes without even blinking. These are homes that would go for $175,000 in the rural areas of SW Virginia.

Let's use Burlington, VT as an example. The median home price in Burlington is $320,000. That's about $100,000 more than Roanoke, Virginia, a city that by most accounts is as attractive and offers a higher average salary for it's residents and an overall 20% lower cost of living. Burlington's median home prices are double the national average. Compounding these elevated home values in Vermont are very high property tax rates. Let's get back to Burlington, where the median house value is $320,000. The property tax rate in Burlington is $2.72 per $100 in value! Compare that to $1.19 in Roanoke City (or $0.53 where I live, in Franklin County, VA). Let's assume that this modest median priced home is owned by a family of three making the median annual household income in Burlington of $46,000... That family is paying $8,700 a year in property tax! That's 19% of their gross salary. Assuming that this family put 20% down on their $320,000 house and took out a 30 year mortgage with a 6% interest rate, their debt service is +/- $1,800 a month. So after paying their mortgage and their property tax, this "median family" has $14,500 left. Oh wait, I forgot, this is their gross salary and they haven't paid state or federal income tax yet. Now they have $100 to pay for food, utilities and transportation for the entire year

This economic reality is causing a population surge in outlying counties or dooming hard working families to a rental lifestyle in substandard quality housing. It's not just the surrounding counties. If you look at Chittenden County population growth it's almost stopped. Even Addison County has severely elevated home values so it's own growth is inhibited, except for affluent folks with substantial budgets. However, look North of Burlington all the way up to the Canadian border and you'll see 5 year growth rates of close to 10%. Working folks who can't afford to live in Burlington are moving to Grand Isle, Orleans County and so on, in some cases driving 60 minutes to work one way. This is a major problem in my mind. The challenge is that, in the absence of substantial tax revenues from personal incomes and capital gains, Vermont gov't is compelled to ratchet up property taxes to fund gov't. And they plan on ratcheting up even more. The reason is that they are nervous they're depending too much on capital gaines taxes, which is not an insignicant piece of the revenue pie. The problem from a gov't perspective is that, if the stock market loses value over their fiscal year, there is no capital gains and therefore a big chunk of state revenue vaporizes. However, real estate prices are much more stable, so they can ratchet up property taxes to take the place of these capital gains taxes and even during tough times, affluent people will still pay close to $20,000 a year in taxes for their $600,000 house. Well guess what, that's $20,000 that the summer family won't be spending locally and supporting local economies, which is at the heart of the economic dysfunction with Vermont.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a raging Republican trying to poison what makes Vermont beautiful. I'm actually a moderate Democrat who just happens to disagree with Bernie's take on the widening gap between the rich and the poor and it's root cause.

There, I feel better now.

Sean

[harry chickpea]

Nicely said, Sean. I've come to think that property tax is one of the larger barriers to people making the jump from poor and lower middle class to middle class and above. Someone who spends minimally can avoid a lot of sales tax. Someone who doesn't make a lot of money can avoid a lot of income tax. But since the first investment a lot of people have been led to purchase is a home, they end up on a treadmill paying out interest, taxes and insurance, while hoping for an increase in equity.

[arel]

The posts on this thread make the idea of moving to Vermont feel very scary, if not untenable.

Are these the reasons why Vermont is so sparsely populated?

[joe moving]

luv80s, In 2 years, you never know, it might grow on you. But... it seems like the very things that you seem to dislike are the reasons why many love it there.

ninja, Could you elaborate on your job and living situation?

sean, Taxes are usually on the assessed value of a house, not the purchase price. If the market is inflated, a 320k house isn't going to be valued at 320k. Here the tax rate is ~4%. a 320k house has ~$5000 taxes. For example I called about a house in Montpelier where the tax rate is about 3%, selling for $220k the taxes on it are under $4000. I quickly ran some numbers at $320k and $46k gross, and it seems feasible--after you deduct mortgage interest, you should be paying very little federal and state income tax. However, I am not familiar with many of the costs of living in VT though, so it's hard for me estimate things like cost of food and cost to heat a home, which are likely higher than many other places.

[seanpecor]

Good point Joe, glancing around it looks like the sales prices at the moment are about 20% higher than the assessed amount. And as far as the taxes go, your example looks off to me, so just to make sure you may want to look closer and make sure you're getting both the property tax AND the education tax which is split off from the property tax, because that money goes to the state. For example, the property tax rate in Burlington is $1.0566 for every $100, BUT the education rate is $1.6596 for every $100 on top of that.

Sean

[KoZmiC NinJa]

Originally Posted by seanpecor

Good point Joe, glancing around it looks like the sales prices at the moment are about 20% higher than the assessed amount. And as far as the taxes go, your example looks off to me, so just to make sure you may want to look closer and make sure you're getting both the property tax AND the education tax which is split off from the property tax, because that money goes to the state. For example, the property tax rate in Burlington is $1.0566 for every $100, BUT the education rate is $1.6596 for every $100 on top of that.

Sean

Our house just went for about 15% above the assessed value but
we took the first offer after only 10 days of just a FSBO sign out
front. Im sure we could have gotten more but in our situation
getting it done was more important than waiting so we took
what I believe to be about a 5,000 hit. But, our situation is a
perfect example of the outragious and unexpected stuff that can
hit a person thinking of moving here and trying to budget. In just
18 months of living here, our house was reassessed at a higher rate
(although it wont affect us), school taxes went up two times, our
public water and sewer -DOUBLED-and our mortgage lender(not
the original one) took advantage of a quiet Bu$h congress giveaway
where a lender is allowed to arbitrarily assess flood insurance to
your mortgage despite what the terms of the original mortgage
were, along with 6% escrow overage they are allowed to take
too, bloats the mortgage payment to an extra 200 a month over
the original terms we signed on. This, combined with those
constantly rising taxes make home ownership a severe hardship for
the average Vermonter .