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Why did I leave Vermont? After growing up in Braintree, I left four years ago for Germany for a relationship. Since them I've travelled lots around Europe, lived in Mexico City, and thought lots about where i come from since few people seem to know where it is. Now that I am in Berlin, where the winters are mild in comparison, I can afford to really indulge my nostalgia. Oh, the fall. Oh, the mountains. Oh, the farmer's market. Oh, the Tunbridge Fair (no joke). Even the winter brings back lots of fond memories of snowshoeing, sledding, hiking around in the woods around my house and coming in for some hot chocolate and looking at the lovely woods from the window and putting some wood in the wood stove (Germans don't use wood for anything really, and I really miss it. Never would have thought that when I was 16 and angry about having stack cord after cord of wood in September...). Oh, right, the friendly people! Town meeting day! Blaze orange!! I miss lots of things about Vermont. And I daydream of going back. But I don't think I can afford it. Wages are so low (and there isn't a big selection of jobs, especially in the media/creative sector) and the cost of living is so high. It makes me really sad in a way, but on the other hand I can still hold on to the dream that I will return when I am older (26 now) and that my parents will keep their respective houses (assuming they can still afford the property tax) and Vermont will always be there for me to come back to.
AND the money isn't the only issue: for a young person, Vermont probably never will have much to offer in terms of museums, exhibitions, nightlife. (Relative to a large city).
I love Vermont for what it is to me, and would like to return. Some day. I left more because I wanted the big city experience. Burlington's great and everything but four years at UVM wasn't exactly "the big city experience" I was looking for. That said, I hope Burlington resists adopting big city trends (I saw a Fendi bag in a shop window two years ago. Couldn't believe it. But with the influx of NY/NJ/CT/MA -- aw, heck "flatlanders", I guess it is bound to happen). As much as I wanted to be from somewhere else when I was growing up there, I couldn't be happier about my childhood now. Vermont is a fantastic place to grow up and probably a fantastic place to settle down -- minus the property tax.
Reading the other posts, I had to laugh at the indignant flatlanders being offended about hunting photos (there has to be something about that in Vermont Life, come on). Dudes, it's culture!
And I was a little sad to read about someone ranting about the state getting "liberal" (what's wrong with that?!).
Arel, if you want to move to VT, I can't tell you anything about Brattelboro. I've never spent much time in southern Vermont because...well, it seems about more gentrified to me. Maybe just due to the proximity to MA, NY, etc. Burlington is fun and being close to Montreal is a real bonus in my opinion. Also because of the university, there are quite a lot of cultural events and lots of concerts, plays, theater, opera, etc. I went to UVM and had a fantastic time -- because of the professors -- so I am surprised to read about your experience. That said, the university does attract a lot of SUV-driving types from south of the VT border. And they do take over the bars on the weekend. I'm not sure what you are looking for in VT. Outdoors? cultural activities? a job (good luck on that one)? It is also fairly easy to rent in Burlington (probably even for 5 cats). And don't worry about the driving. You will get the hang of it after a winter. Honestly. Just get good tires! I guess the biggest concern after housing and a job is the people. Vermonters do sometimes have a chip on their shoulder about rude, loud, SUV-speeding flatlanders that make fun of us for hunting, town meeting day, not having a real city, etc. Vermont is rural. And likes it that way. It is a bit insulting when non-Vermonters come in and start saying things like "look at how they live". But the solution is simple: don't act like in you are visiting a zoo. (Not that you would. But some people do.) The fact that you come from New York may turn people off a bit (because they are shy or insecure) but it also may really interest them and be a great thing to talk about. And you can always joke about the differences (excuse me for waxing cultural, but after living in large cities for 4 years, I feel there IS a big difference and it took me a long time to get used to how to act in a big city). I think the best thing is to be open and curious and probably not whine about deer hunting season. And get invovled in lots of community activities -- there are plenty. You can't help but make friends!
I have lived in Brooklyn, NY for most of my life. I went to college in suburban Philidelphia, and I have lived in Manhattan and in a small town in southern Rhode Island. I have also visited and considered moving to western Massachusetts and to the Upper Valley area in Vermont. I have spent time in New Hampshire and Maine. I have also visited the midwest. It is not for me, culturally, but I did love Chicago, or at least what I saw of it. At this time, I have no desire to live anywhere but in the northeast.
In small towns, I like the quiet, the lack of congestion, the open spaces, the sense of community, the calmness. What I do not like is the lack of competition in services, which denies consumers leverage, or even choices to go elsewhere, in the face of bad or indifferent service. I had to deal with that in Rhode Island, and I still remember how trapped and angry I felt.
I love the big city. I love the energy, the excitement, the access to everything. But with this, there is dirt and congestion, and with it an undercurrent of frustration and anger. There is a constant awareness of crime and corruption. Terrorism is unlikely, but there is constant awareness about that too. A major hurricane is also unlikely, but with the congestion, the devastation (and the extreme difficulty of evacuation for those who need to evacuate) is frightening to contemplate. I think of the chaos when Houston had to evacuate last year, I think for Hurricane Rita.
New York can be architecturally interesting in places, and there are some lovely parks (especially Central Park) and the ocean is nearby, but the mountains are hours away.
As a poster on the Vermont forum once wrote, he loved both places (New York City and Vermont) very much and wished he could combine them somehow.
Arel, I don't think I've seen another social worker post anywhere.
I too am a licensed, experienced MSW. I went to grad school in the south and when my wife was transferred, we moved to NH. We moaned about low salaries down south, but NH was utterly pitiful and almost unbelievable considering the high per capita income level. Pay there was about five to ten grand lower than typical SW salaries in Arkansas. Yes, that's what I said, I didn't stutter. I thought, is the world crazy? The techno-corridor, well-educated northeast can't compete with a bunch of hillbillies who marry their cousins, or siblings?
I also found the NH SW licensure proceedure (you can find the forms and instructions on the net) peculiar to the point of near-pathological. Essay questions, lots of BS. It's like they didn't believe any of your history, and essentially you were returned to a mini-grad school/licensure exam.
If I had to move back to the south, the proceedure in AR to get licensed, if you're licensed in another state, is a one-page form and a small fee. They trust that other states and other grad schools are not out to cheat them, the opposite of the impression I got from NH.
The NH bureaucracy was insane. We called Concord many times regarding vehicle registration. Usually the phone just rang. Sometimes we'd get a recording. On occasion an actual human being picked up. No one ever returned our calls. To get things straightened out I had to write nastygrams including a letter to the finance co. in Alabama and a cc to the state banking commission. It's amazing how corporations pay attention when their certifiying authority sends an inquiry over.
My unasked question in all this, is it like this in VT? I found the culture in NH a bit standoffish. Common courtesies instruction, like returning phone calls or emails, was apparently skipped in NH grammar school.
We are looking at returning to the NE in the next year or two. Writing this, I'm wondering why.
NH property taxes are insane, Maine is the highest-tax-burden state in the country, and one VT city wanted to seceed and become NH territory because of taxes.
Our tax burden here is under $1000 on a $210grand house. In NH it would be three to six times that. We have a 6 percent sales tax, I forget what the income tax is but since we're both retired military, we don't pay much at present.
We later moved to north of Philly, and I made the mistake of getting a PA license. I should have gotten a NJ license, because pay is better and it seems jobs more plentiful across the river. We didn't want to live in Joisey, but I think working there would have been OK. Probably double taxation.
At least the PA licensure wasn't the nutcase that NH was. MA licensure, incidentally, was more straightforward than NH. Not exactly what I expected. It's farmed out to a private firm in MA.
I guess the purpose of this rant is look before you leap! ! Plan some and then plan some more.
Since you're already NY licensed, you might want to look near the NY border. I don't know what the VT licensure proceedure is, but from NH and MA they want your entire life history beginning prior to conception and your complete supervisory history, certified by the Pope and two random McDonald's employees. haha just kidding.
Pay in MA is of course far better than NH, although I'm not sure re: the west end of MA.
Hope this rant makes some sense, and I hope to God VT has a more user-friendly bureaucracy than NH, which as a native son returning after a long absense greatly disappointed me. No, it didn't disappoint me. It drove me bonkers.
One time in AR I had a question regarding a state law, probably as it applied to SW. I called the AG's office. In a minute or two a real live lawyer came on the line, we talked a few minutes, and I got my answer.
Once upon a time in NH I had a similar question. I phoned the AG's office. I was told to go find a lawyer, they didn't do that there. Basically KMA.
I used to work in municipal government here in the state and have had quite a few dealings with licensing boards. Maybe I'm just a lucky guy, but my experiences with VT government overall have been positive in nature, and that includes personal business as well. Most of the folks I've dealt with seem to be decent human beings. Paper pushers though they may be, I have always been amazed at response times to questions and mailings. Again, this could be attributed to my good fortune. My experiences are not in your area, however, and I don't know the regs that apply, so possibly my post is all for naught. Anyway, I just thought I'd chime in. Good Luck!
I have also had a good experiences with Vermont bureaucracy. I contacted the state licence board by email, and I quickly got all my questions answered.
I was told I could get my VT license in a week once they had my paperwork. I don't remember what the paperwork entails, but I think that because I have the advanced clinical license and the "psychotherapy privilege" in New York, that the process is simple.
New Hampshire sounds like a nightmare. I have not asked about a NH license, but I would need one if I got a job in Keene (near Brattleboro). I don't really want to live or work in NH if I don't have to. I remember eating in a luncheonette in a rural place, about 20 years ago, and feeling very uncomfortable with the people. And I do not want to live somewhere where "liberal" is a dirty word.
I remember, years ago, looking into living and working in the Amherst, MA, area. There are lots of agencies there but the pay, if I remember correctly, was low.
I have been told that private practicioners do OK in Brattleboro. I have been in contact with a few therapists and they are happy there. But I have also been told that therapists do not tend to network there.
I used to work in municipal government here in the state and have had quite a few dealings with licensing boards. Maybe I'm just a lucky guy, but my experiences with VT government overall have been positive in nature, and that includes personal business as well. Most of the folks I've dealt with seem to be decent human beings. Paper pushers though they may be, I have always been amazed at response times to questions and mailings. Again, this could be attributed to my good fortune. My experiences are not in your area, however, and I don't know the regs that apply, so possibly my post is all for naught. Anyway, I just thought I'd chime in. Good Luck!
Thanks for the response, square peg.
Yes, the NH experiences surprised me. I could have been unlucky, but we phoned the caah depahtment in Concord at least a dozen times and there was more than one number as I recall. As I said, the contrast between NH and AR was huge. Some bureaucracies are just too far gone!
One odd NH aside...I got licensed at the top clinical level, LICSW. Yet some of my co-workers didn't even know whether the proper abbreviation was LCSW or LICSW. I phoned the board, then drove up and read the reg. This was such a DUH I couldn't believe it. Usually the licensed folks know what they're called. There was some question about licensed counselors too, but that's another tale.
Last edited by Dwatted Wabbit; 12-26-2006 at 12:04 AM..
I have also had a good experiences with Vermont bureaucracy. I contacted the state licence board by email, and I quickly got all my questions answered.
I was told I could get my VT license in a week once they had my paperwork. I don't remember what the paperwork entails, but I think that because I have the advanced clinical license and the "psychotherapy privilege" in New York, that the process is simple.
New Hampshire sounds like a nightmare. I have not asked about a NH license, but I would need one if I got a job in Keene (near Brattleboro). I don't really want to live or work in NH if I don't have to. I remember eating in a luncheonette in a rural place, about 20 years ago, and feeling very uncomfortable with the people. And I do not want to live somewhere where "liberal" is a dirty word.
I remember, years ago, looking into living and working in the Amherst, MA, area. There are lots of agencies there but the pay, if I remember correctly, was low.
I have been told that private practicioners do OK in Brattleboro. I have been in contact with a few therapists and they are happy there. But I have also been told that therapists do not tend to network there.
I am going to start a social worker thread.
Good idear about a SW thread. I saw it, but had little to add beyond my already-chronicled adventures in NHbureaucracyland.
I don't know much about VT salaries, I had a cousin who was licensed there but she opened a restaurant. She did say that social services pay was poor. Fishing around on the net can give a rough idear about pay scales.
As I said, I was shocked and apalled at the low pay in NH R/T the supposedly "hick" south. I have another relative who works for NH, and she thought low 30s after 10+ years as a SW was good pay. Gotta get out more! Just remembered, when I flew to NH for a job interview in 2003, I was offered a supervisor position out of Keene, working for the state. A very large territory to work/drive, and one bachelors level supervisee: $32 grand, and that was the top of their scale. I didn't know whether to laugh, cry, or click my heels together three times and hope I landed in Kansas.
Incidentally, Peterborough--about 20 miles east of Keene as I recall--is quite a liberal town. It's a nice funky little town of 5000. A river runs through it. Not sure about Keene. You're not talking interstate highways, though.
I wouldn't take one luncheonette incident 20 years ago as the full NH flavor. All types live there, from few-teethed inbreds to Bostonian snobs to the majority of just normal people.
In fact they just kicked out the republican legislative majority and two incumbent R congressional reps this past election. The demo governator was just re-elected. Many folk are independent thinkers, and the state motto can't be beat.
Good luck, the process can be fun, in between going crazy, and it's of course a growth opportunity.
Good idear about a SW thread. I saw it, but had little to add beyond my already-chronicled adventures in NHbureaucracyland.
I don't know much about VT salaries, I had a cousin who was licensed there but she opened a restaurant. She did say that social services pay was poor. Fishing around on the net can give a rough idear about pay scales.
As I said, I was shocked and apalled at the low pay in NH R/T the supposedly "hick" south. I have another relative who works for NH, and she thought low 30s after 10+ years as a SW was good pay. Gotta get out more! Just remembered, when I flew to NH for a job interview in 2003, I was offered a supervisor position out of Keene, working for the state. A very large territory to work/drive, and one bachelors level supervisee: $32 grand, and that was the top of their scale. I didn't know whether to laugh, cry, or click my heels together three times and hope I landed in Kansas.
Incidentally, Peterborough--about 20 miles east of Keene as I recall--is quite a liberal town. It's a nice funky little town of 5000. A river runs through it. Not sure about Keene. You're not talking interstate highways, though.
I wouldn't take one luncheonette incident 20 years ago as the full NH flavor. All types live there, from few-teethed inbreds to Bostonian snobs to the majority of just normal people.
In fact they just kicked out the republican legislative majority and two incumbent R congressional reps this past election. The demo governator was just re-elected. Many folk are independent thinkers, and the state motto can't be beat.
Good luck, the process can be fun, in between going crazy, and it's of course a growth opportunity.
Alas you are correct. We did just oust 2 very good congressmen. But that was due to the Bush backlash, It won't last watch. As for the dems in control in NH that won't last either Thank God. With Republican rule for over 100 years in NH it was bound to happen. But Lucky for us, After it happened ppl started talking and all said the dems get 1 shot at it again. Unlike the natinal party. Our state party are idiots. Garenteed they pass laws limiting freedoms and raise taxes. That is what got them tossed in the first place. It took them over 100 years to come back from it. I'm no fan of Lynch he is a hipocrate, but he is not a true Demacrate either. He is more a libraterian which is what NH mainly is. But Only dems and rep get elected here. Hopefully someone that actually knows how to run a campain will run the next race and kick his butt out of office.
Here's another opinion. I think you would like Brattleboro. It is in the warmest part of Vermont, and closer to NYC than anywhere else. There is a fair amount going on for a town of its size too, including good music. Also not too far to Northampton or Amherst.
I moved to northern Vermont in 1979 and won't leave until I retire. It helps a lot if you have a winter sport, like skiing or snowmobiling or snowshoeing. You have to get outside in the winter or you get cabin fever. Of course, this winter is much warmer than usual - the new norm?
People leave Vermont for all sorts of reasons. My daughter and her friends just graduated from college, and they have all left to see the world. I expect some will come back when they are ready to settle down. Some people are unhappy here and do leave, but most of the people I know are sticking it out. It's a better place than most of the rest of the United States, which I believe is approaching insanity in everything from energy use to crime to TV watching to greed. My only advice: avoid a long commute, which is a drag in winter.
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And about the Vermonters...
