[Wingfoot]

Originally Posted by j_jimerino

Vermont's problem isn't really its high taxes. High taxes and services can be maintained provided there is a large economic base and the population has decent paying jobs. Mass has its problems, but it is an economic hub so it has a tax base that can support it. Some one forgot to tell the idiots in the legislature that it isn't the case here. There isn't some huge group of corporations to tax and the population by and large doesn't have the income needed.

Vermont's poor business climate means people are paid insulting wages. Many skilled people up and leave, creating a negative feedback loop. The draconian development laws seem to be mostly designed to allow unadulterated mountain views for ski areas. (Notice carving a hole for a ski lift is still a-ok but if some one wanted to put a wind turbine up there it is suddenly to damaging to the view) Its hard to build houses or businesses, which results in the remaining aging housing stock increasing in price beyond the reach of most families while depressing their wages.

The bottom line is Vermont cannot be a big government utopia without the tax base to support it. Other states attracted a business climate before increasing their taxes. Vermont has put the cart before the house and chased out what little it had to start with.

If the laws are designed to make the state look like a playground for the rich, not unreasonable to assume thats what is.

[arctichomesteader]

Originally Posted by Lilybeans

Sometimes I wonder about everyone crying they can't get hired by someone and there are no jobs. The solution is so obvious to me. Start your own business. Who says you have to work for someone else? Why is that an automatic assumption these days?

The state doesn't make self-employment any more appealing than being a major corporation here. Furthermore, there are limited opportunities for self-employment. Only so many can be in the cheese business, the candle business, etc., before the market is saturated, and the market is already saturated with trades like carpenters, plumbers, etc. (and few have the money these days to hire a pro), jobs like logging (most VT loggers are between one and a handful of people businesses) are dying (thank the anti-logging nuts and the free trade people for that one), agriculture is dying a slow and painful death. Let's see, I trap for a lot of my money, though fur prices are in the toilet these days. Too many more trappers in VT and it'd be impossible, our overgrown forests and lack of fields has made wildlife populations decline, then there's all the out of staters who bring their anti ideas from MA, NJ, etc. making getting on private property more difficult (though I'd have less trouble in the NEK), you have to cover a lot of ground here to get a catch without over-trapping. Let's see what I've done the past year: trapped, helped tap maples and make syrup, part time retail work, some work with farms during the summer here and there, helped at an orchard pressing cider, and I did help someone cut down some trees on their property and pull the stumps...I also grew a large garden (weather made for some bad yields but nonetheless it cut deeply into what I had to buy), been eating mostly wild game and fish, picked about 50 pounds of blueberries this year (and considerably less blackberries, cranberries and cloudberries), got some maple syrup, apples and cider at no charge from working there. Despite all this, I'm still just barely getting by financially. Not one of the things I did would be easy to make a living off of full time. Not one of the farmers I worked with is able to make a living just off farming, loggers are barely getting by these days, few could make a living entirely off syrup or fruit and cider. Now if I owned land here and had to pay taxes on it...ouch is all I can say...

[BickleTravis]

Originally Posted by Wingfoot

As Vermont is in essence a high-cost ,low-wage playground for the NYC area where most of the folks you mention come from, the future of Vermont is more dependent on how the pay and bonus schedule holds up on Wall Street than anything else.

Could not be more true.

[BickleTravis]

Originally Posted by RunawayJim

I hate to say it but industry has left New England in general. Vermont's problems are not unique. Businesses, especially larger corporations, prefer the south because land is cheaper.

I think a lot of this is amusing. You get people who don't want more people moving to the state because it ruins the state. You get the same people who say that no companies want to move there because of the state's taxes. What do you think will happen if a large corporation moves to VT? They'll bring jobs, but not necessarily jobs that VTers are qualified for, which means they'll bring in people from out of state, too.

What people living everywhere need to understand is that the minute someone moves to a new town or state, they are a resident and have a right to vote and push for changes that they want. The length of time someone has lived somewhere does not give someone seniority over how the place should be. The guy who has lived there for 40 years does not have more of a say than the guy who moved there this morning. You're not BOTH Vermonters and need to respect that of each other.

But back on topic, I read something the other day that the only state that will not bounce back from the recession is RI. I take all these doom and gloom articles with a grain of salt, though.

I don't know about RI, but other parts of NE have industry.
VT has nothing. Service, and nothing else.
VT pretty much sucks now. Get out if you can, and let the hippies try to run the place when they've chased out all the jobs and have no revenue beyond property taxes.

[BickleTravis]

Originally Posted by looking4home

Good take, jimerino. But if you read the article posted, the problem goes a bit further than that, and may be harder to fix. If the population is aging without sufficient replacement, i.e. children who grow-up and stay in Vermont to work, then there will always be a struggle to balance government-subsidized programs/amenities/entitlements with a shrinking tax-base.

I grew up in Burlington. Left the state for school because daddy's not a stockbroker. Tried to come back... realized that if you are 20 something and educated, you can work at the Burton factory for $10 an hour. And consider yourself lucky because VT is just soooo beautiful (that BS doesn't work on anyone who's ever traveled west of the Mississippi). So... stay in order to work two ****ty jobs and still be broke? What idiot would do that if leaving were possible at all?

[BickleTravis]

Originally Posted by Lilybeans

Sometimes I wonder about everyone crying they can't get hired by someone and there are no jobs. The solution is so obvious to me. Start your own business. Who says you have to work for someone else? Why is that an automatic assumption these days?

Right. Starting a business is very cheap, and one can expect to turn a profit right away.

[Wingfoot]

Originally Posted by BickleTravis

I grew up in Burlington. Left the state for school because daddy's not a stockbroker. Tried to come back... realized that if you are 20 something and educated, you can work at the Burton factory for $10 an hour. And consider yourself lucky because VT is just soooo beautiful (that BS doesn't work on anyone who's ever traveled west of the Mississippi). So... stay in order to work two ****ty jobs and still be broke? What idiot would do that if leaving were possible at all?

The BS doesn't work for anyone who taken the Ferry over to New York and checked out the Adirondacks which are far more lovely than anywhere in VT.

[vter]

This thread has been re-opened.
Please remember the TOS....be CIVIL. Please stay away from gross generalizations and name calling. Thank you.

[RunawayJim]

Originally Posted by BickleTravis

I don't know about RI, but other parts of NE have industry.
VT has nothing. Service, and nothing else.
VT pretty much sucks now. Get out if you can, and let the hippies try to run the place when they've chased out all the jobs and have no revenue beyond property taxes.

There's not a whole lot of industry in New England. It's seriously dwindling and layoffs are pretty common. It's mostly military/government contractors.

Manufacturing in the US in general has been going downhill very quickly as we buy more and more from overseas.

RI is trying to build a creative and knowledge based economy, which is probably what VT should try to do. Having spent some time in VT's economic hub, it's similar to Providence in a way with lots of creative people.

[looking4home]

Yes, I have wondered why Vermont hasn't modeled itself on a Silicon Valley or a Seattle. Certainly, there is the brainpower, which is the upside of all those ex-urban yuppie types that decided to relocate there.