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Telling the truth about one's experiences with life in VT gets the same 'stop being so negative' reactions from the head in the sand happiness crowd.
Really? What examples can you give of that? Even in the post you just made, you did some name-calling and generalizing. Now, that will motivate calls to stop being negative. Your experience (I presume) doesn't include psychic powers to know whose happy head is in the sand.
Head in the sand happiness crowd is apt for folks content with VT. You don't seem to have much use for prediction, but prediction works for squirrels and people. VT is expensive, poor and getting poorer. The state is spend happy and broke. With zero new revenue sources(that is from VT's fearless leaders) Another prediction from your fearless leaders, property tax is going up over 20% in the next two years. Heads up.
I feel many of the people who don't have 100% positive things to say are frustrated with the direction the state has gone in the past decade to decade and a half. I am one of those people, but I say the things I do because I feel some things have changed for the worse, as in my situation. The state of Vermont has many many great positive attributes and many negative ones as well. No place is perfect as we all know, but the positives have always overwhelmingly outweighed the negatives. I would not have moved here and stayed for as long as I have if I didn't feel that way. There are more middle and lower income citizens in the state than wealthy people and it is becoming harder and harder for them to survive. I would bet the majority of them could not afford to buy a home in the current real estate market if they had to. The prices of homes continues to climb, real estate taxes continue to increase and utility prices are continueing to increase. The state is in finanicial trouble and ignoring or not paying attention to these very serious issues is not going to fix them. The wealthy are not going to be hurt when the state has no other option but to cut services. It will be the backbone of this state. I still think we have it good in the state. It's a great place to raise a family, crime is low and the quality of life in the state is way above average.
I was also raised by depression and WW2 era parents who were immigrants that sacrificed everything to make it in this great nation. My father was a historian who always referenced the greatness of our founding fathers. If they had not stood up and fought for what was in the best interest of the people and had ignored the countries troubles, we would still be under English rule. I feel it is fine to complain about what is wrong, but also let your voice be heard to our elected officials or it's pointless.
Almost everyone I know who owns property here bought it several decades ago, or inherited it. The average VT'er can't afford to buy here anymore. That's a serious problem as I see it, and the further down the black hole of people being forced to rent their entire lives, the bigger the nanny state will grow too (it's simply a fact, those in cities who rent are more likely to desire bigger government to "protect" them, while a population of primarily property owners don't want the government sticking its nose in their business). We really need to resolve the property price issue. I'm not entirely sure what can be done about it, the rich people buying property drive up prices, but at the same time, loosening some regulations would make things easier. I discovered while doing calculations some time ago on what it would cost to build my own home in Vermont, that the number one reason I couldn't afford it, was the government. The permit requirements. The worst is the septic rules (which really discourage people from using alternative systems, and, you can't build without that septic permit) and the wetlands rules. I'm all for protecting important wildlife habitat, but when land that is absolutely dry except a tiny corner that is poorly drained, is classified entirely as wetlands and is nearly impossible to build on, we have a problem! I could have right now about 15 acres of nice woodland in the NEK but because of that I doubt I could have built on it (though that's one reason it was cheap), so I didn't bother. Issues like that are making the situation worse. We need to throw out the special interest groups that pull the strings at our legislature.
We need to attract some business to the state. There's absolutely no reason the urban areas (which used to have considerable industry) couldn't have exemptions from many regulations and some taxes to encourage this, to keep it controlled, except the NIMBY attitudes and special interests. I noted also recently in Rutland, a mistake was made on water and sewer rates for a local business and when it was made known the higher rate would drive them out, the response was essentially, the politicians don't care. And they wonder why businesses avoid them...they might lose a little money charging a lower rate, but with the jobs they'd provide it'd more than make up for it.
Then we have the elitists in the legislature...the recent ATV on state lands issue is a perfect example. One arrogant legislator catering to the environmental lobby stopped people from using lands they own and pay pretty high taxes to do so. If anyone deserved a good tarring and feathering these days he'd be the candidate. Anyone running against him has my support.
Vermont needs to get it's head out of its butt and ALLOW businesses to spread in the state so people can make wages comparable to the cost of living. Not necessarily BIG BOX stores but 'industry.'
I don't care either way. I'm moving. And if it's whining, well after 2 years of trying, I am entitled to whine. I've NEVER lived ANYWHERE like this state where you SIMPLY CANNOT FIND WORK. When you have to compete for 15 hour a week jobs it's pathetic. (even BEFORE the recession it was like this).
Yes, it's a recession and bad all over, but here, I don't know...it's just very poor if you lose your job and can't get another after MONTHS of trying. Then you look and see 'odd balls,' working or '80 year olds' still working and think what the hell?
I hope if this is 'the place' for people, they do enjoy it. Maybe it's not for everyone. Let's admit there are PLENTY of people who left here and they had valid reasons. (just like they left other states).
I see no point ranting anymore or trying to 'convince' others it sucks here. They have free choice to stay. That is what is great about America. Freedom to move about.
Head in the sand happiness crowd is apt for folks content with VT. You don't seem to have much use for prediction, but prediction works for squirrels and people. VT is expensive, poor and getting poorer. The state is spend happy and broke. With zero new revenue sources(that is from VT's fearless leaders) Another prediction from your fearless leaders, property tax is going up over 20% in the next two years. Heads up.
Like I said, who cares what people choose to do? Let them stay and live their lives if they are happy. You've moved on, I'll be, too. And just like on the Long Island forum, we have no reason to really post anymore.
Almost everyone I know who owns property here bought it several decades ago, or inherited it. The average VT'er can't afford to buy here anymore. That's a serious problem as I see it, and the further down the black hole of people being forced to rent their entire lives, the bigger the nanny state will grow too (it's simply a fact, those in cities who rent are more likely to desire bigger government to "protect" them, while a population of primarily property owners don't want the government sticking its nose in their business). We really need to resolve the property price issue. I'm not entirely sure what can be done about it, the rich people buying property drive up prices, but at the same time, loosening some regulations would make things easier. I discovered while doing calculations some time ago on what it would cost to build my own home in Vermont, that the number one reason I couldn't afford it, was the government. The permit requirements. The worst is the septic rules (which really discourage people from using alternative systems, and, you can't build without that septic permit) and the wetlands rules. I'm all for protecting important wildlife habitat, but when land that is absolutely dry except a tiny corner that is poorly drained, is classified entirely as wetlands and is nearly impossible to build on, we have a problem! I could have right now about 15 acres of nice woodland in the NEK but because of that I doubt I could have built on it (though that's one reason it was cheap), so I didn't bother. Issues like that are making the situation worse. We need to throw out the special interest groups that pull the strings at our legislature.
We need to attract some business to the state. There's absolutely no reason the urban areas (which used to have considerable industry) couldn't have exemptions from many regulations and some taxes to encourage this, to keep it controlled, except the NIMBY attitudes and special interests. I noted also recently in Rutland, a mistake was made on water and sewer rates for a local business and when it was made known the higher rate would drive them out, the response was essentially, the politicians don't care. And they wonder why businesses avoid them...they might lose a little money charging a lower rate, but with the jobs they'd provide it'd more than make up for it.
Then we have the elitists in the legislature...the recent ATV on state lands issue is a perfect example. One arrogant legislator catering to the environmental lobby stopped people from using lands they own and pay pretty high taxes to do so. If anyone deserved a good tarring and feathering these days he'd be the candidate. Anyone running against him has my support.
I agree with you on the whole, however I do have a couple questions about the NEK building thing:
We just got done building in the NEK and our permitting consisted of an application and $35 fee and a final inspection for smoke detectors and plumbing. I will say our land had a septic permit pulled already along with plans………compared to the crap I usually deal with (pulling a permit to paint my house for God’s sake, permit to put up two sections of decorative fencing, permits for siding, permits for permits……) it was beyond easy. The land was cheap too, granted it is relative, anything less than $40K I consider pretty inexpensive, obviously that is subjective. We built 50-55% ourselves and that kept our costs in check, it can be done.
What is considered affordable in VT? I hear people complaining about affordable housing, but anything that can possibly be built costs way over their limits. Last time I checked $500/mo for a mobile home was “affordable” (assuming you are working)…………I don’t mean this in an insensitive way, in all seriousness the state defines “affordable” as about $1150/month for all living expenses (house, utilities, etc.), from what I hear from people, that is BS………
I hope if this is 'the place' for people, they do enjoy it. Maybe it's not for everyone. Let's admit there are PLENTY of people who left here and they had valid reasons. (just like they left other states).
I see no point ranting anymore or trying to 'convince' others it sucks here. They have free choice to stay. That is what is great about America. Freedom to move about.
Exactly, exactly, exactly! I'm horrified by the time and effort you spent into getting work that never paid off. I imagine I'd leave if that happened to me. It's reality and I'm glad you shared it with us. That's not whining or negative ranting -- it's your life and what you're doing is seeking a better situation for yourself. I've never seen you calling people names, stereotyping, or trying to tell others that they're only imagining they're happy here.
We just got done building in the NEK and our permitting consisted of an application and $35 fee and a final inspection for smoke detectors and plumbing. (SNIP) it was beyond easy.
Tell me about it. Where I lived in Florida, every detail was regulated down to the color a house was painted, fence style and height, type and number of cars, and endless minutiae. That applied to permits on existing houses as well as new construction.
I do think Vermont's septic/sewage laws are outdated. As arctichomsteader said, there are very workable alternatives now that are disallowed thanks to obsolete requirements. If we were looking to build, we'd definitely be addressing this with our legislators.
I agree with you on the whole, however I do have a couple questions about the NEK building thing:
We just got done building in the NEK and our permitting consisted of an application and $35 fee and a final inspection for smoke detectors and plumbing. I will say our land had a septic permit pulled already along with plans………compared to the crap I usually deal with (pulling a permit to paint my house for God’s sake, permit to put up two sections of decorative fencing, permits for siding, permits for permits……) it was beyond easy. The land was cheap too, granted it is relative, anything less than $40K I consider pretty inexpensive, obviously that is subjective. We built 50-55% ourselves and that kept our costs in check, it can be done.
What is considered affordable in VT? I hear people complaining about affordable housing, but anything that can possibly be built costs way over their limits. Last time I checked $500/mo for a mobile home was “affordable” (assuming you are working)…………I don’t mean this in an insensitive way, in all seriousness the state defines “affordable” as about $1150/month for all living expenses (house, utilities, etc.), from what I hear from people, that is BS………
Thoughts?
If you already had a septic permit and nothing even resembling a wetland on the property it probably wasn't too bad. Without that permit, and if you had a mud puddle on the land, it can be pretty bad. Subdividing land is also a hassle often.
VT's wages make "affordable" much more difficult to attain than some other states. $30,000 for maybe 10 acres (an example I've seen) isn't really affordable on VT wages. The worst part is few banks will loan money on raw land which makes it harder.
I could put up a small house (cape cod style/size) for probably $3,000 or less total on well timbered land to supply the wood. I have the tools and skills to do so. But the regulations add considerably to that, and then there's the price of land itself...
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