[GrnMtnFire]

Originally Posted by Sherylcatmom

Really? Fantasy world? I know of several commercial real estate deals in South Florida that fell through because these kinds of chains decided it didn't make sense to open more stores for exactly the reasons momnh described. But don't let other realities, such as the pervasive nationwide economic climate, rain on your parade of trashing Vermont.

So explain to me what is holding up WalMart in St. Albans? Permitting and hoop jumping!! I think everyone can agree that Lowes stopped do to that same reason. These companies pay big money to do studies on local impact, supply and demand, competition.

[MRVphotog]

The HD that was proposed for the Barre/Montpelier Rd was going to take over an empty Ames store. It was local opposition to the HD that scared them off, not the state.

Summer before last I helped a friend replace the cedar shakes on his house. We went up to HD at South Burlington and bought a bunch of bundles and when we started the job we quickly discovered that all the shakes were not square. We could have cut and squared each shingle but instead decided to go to the local lumber yard and buy them. These were all perfectly square and the job went fast. The shakes from the local lumber yard were about 10% higher but the money spent at HD was like throwing it way.

Was the money saved by getting them at HD work, obviously not. Sometimes you do get what you pay for so to say "if you buy all your products from 100% local sources you are hitting yourself in the wallet, hard" is total baloney.

[Sherylcatmom]

Originally Posted by GrnMtnFire

So explain to me what is holding up WalMart in St. Albans? Permitting and hoop jumping!! I think everyone can agree that Lowes stopped do to that same reason. These companies pay big money to do studies on local impact, supply and demand, competition.

By all means, blame it all on Vermont. My family members in South Florida who are involved in commercial real estate tell me about the years-long processes to open a single large store on an empty lot. The fun includes: impact studies, surveys, hearings, permitting, zoning, rezoning, use variances, commission meetings, board meetings, appeals, and more appeals at the subdivision, city, county, and state levels.

But certainly Vermont is far worse -- unsalvageable even. We should probably all junk the whole state, leave, and start over somewhere else.

[Logs and Dogs]

"Was the money saved by getting them at HD work, obviously not. Sometimes you do get what you pay for so to say "if you buy all your products from 100% local sources you are hitting yourself in the wallet, hard" is total baloney."

You are missing the point and carrying your shake example all the way to making a blanket statement is a big leap.

Trust me I have plenty of experience buying stuff that turns out to be crap from HD/Lowes as well as the local hardware stores. It happens. No store, chain or local, in the world of retail has 100% perfect products, believe me it is my business.

I also know that by providing some competition for various products results in consumers having a better selection of products, quality and price which is a good thing when every $ counts.

[Houston3]

Originally Posted by Logs and Dogs

I asked about the interpretation of this news because I don’t understand how a faction of “Vermonters” can so consistently speak out of both sides of their mouths. On one hand they complain vigorously about how there need to be more high paying jobs that match the skill sets of the typical rural Vermonter (however you choose to define that) and then on the other hand a company like Lowes or HD comes in and they chase them out of the state. Additionally, many of these same people will complain about the high cost of living in Vermont……..well since I just built a house I can speak to the fact that everyone would go broke if they bought everything to build from their local hardware store. Believe me I spread the coin around as best I could but paying 20% more at a True Value vs. Lowes in NH doesn’t make a lot of sense for most people.

Yet here we are, another company chased out of VT that could have provided a year or more of construction jobs, year-round employment for a hundred people or so, plus trucking jobs, plus serve as a job pipeline for many small contractors through their contractor programs. I wish supporting local hardware and retails shops 100% of the time was practical these days, but given that the average family is struggling with income right now, if you buy all your products from 100% local sources you are hitting yourself in the wallet, hard.

I’m all for supporting local farms, shops etc. but there has to be a balance between supporting local small business and making prudent financial decisions.

Here's what will happen if a Home Depot moves into your area...They will under cut the main street lumber yards and hardware stores and give you great service for about two years until they force all of the old local businesses out of business. After they have done that their prices will go sky high and you will be lucky to find anyone in the store to help you when you need help..

You will be wishing for the good old days...

[Logs and Dogs]

Originally Posted by Houston3

Here's what will happen if a Home Depot moves into your area...They will under cut the main street lumber yards and hardware stores and give you great service for about two years until they force all of the old local businesses out of business. After they have done that their prices will go sky high and you will be lucky to find anyone in the store to help you when you need help..

You will be wishing for the good old days...

And are we in the good old days now?

Frankly, I personally don’t care about HD, Lowes, Wal-Mart etc. they all have good points and bad points, this was more about the missed opportunity to provide just what many Vermonters are clamoring for, jobs and lower prices.

Your little example of doom and gloom is certainly a possibility if the local lumber yards don’t create and leverage a competitive advantage. Business in it’s purest form is survival of the fittest, not charity to high prices and limited selection.

I have a Lowes and an HD 5 minutes from my house and low and behold there are still other lumber yards and hardware stores in business years later, because they created a niche for themselves by doing something or a combination of things better than the “big box” and the have strong businesses today. Will a chain wipe out a weak smaller store with a poor business plan? Absolutely. Is that unfortunate for the small ownership, yes it sucks, it sucks hard, but you can’t put your head in the sand and “hope” for 1950 to come back again.

[mustmove]

Logs and Dogs is correct smaller stores often do better when a box store moves in, old hippy tales are nonsense fear mongering. Yes some stores may go out of business but some stores in VT are run incredibly poorly for both customers and employees. Those stores should have gone out of business 20 years ago, alas the lack of competition allows suckage to thrive.

Originally Posted by Logs and Dogs

And are we in the good old days now?

Frankly, I personally don’t care about HD, Lowes, Wal-Mart etc. they all have good points and bad points, this was more about the missed opportunity to provide just what many Vermonters are clamoring for, jobs and lower prices.

Your little example of doom and gloom is certainly a possibility if the local lumber yards don’t create and leverage a competitive advantage. Business in it’s purest form is survival of the fittest, not charity to high prices and limited selection.

I have a Lowes and an HD 5 minutes from my house and low and behold there are still other lumber yards and hardware stores in business years later, because they created a niche for themselves by doing something or a combination of things better than the “big box” and the have strong businesses today. Will a chain wipe out a weak smaller store with a poor business plan? Absolutely. Is that unfortunate for the small ownership, yes it sucks, it sucks hard, but you can’t put your head in the sand and “hope” for 1950 to come back again.

[68vette]

In many cases the lumber you buy from Lowes and HD is the same lumber you buy from your local lumber yard. Of coarse there are lumber yards who use Vermont lumber, but most of what we are buying is coming in from Canada. If you live near a freight rail or the interstate, you just need to look at the open cars or flat beds and you will see the wrapped lumber with the Canadian markings. The same lumber that is at my local HD and my local lumber yard.

[tkln]

I've heard from many contractors that some other things that HD/Lowe's carry are made specifically for them by companies and is not to the same standards as the 'real' thing- stuff like windows, doors, cabinets, etc...I have no idea how true this is, but I will say this much - the paint at HD/Lowe's is horrible. I've bought paint from both stores, and compared to Sherwin Williams and Benjamin Moore, they are garbage.

[Logs and Dogs]

For me at least, this discussion isn’t about Lowe’s/HD vs. a local lumber guy, sure on the outside it can be about that, what it really is about is bureaucracy combined with protectionism that makes certain places non-conducive to businesses. Like I said before, Vermonters (or anyone else for that matter) can’t complain about the high cost of living and lack of jobs and shopping then on the other hand prevent the most realistic solution from being implemented. I get the whole “buy local” thing, I really do, I make a good living and I still cannot buy everything from “the little guy” and make the numbers work.

I understand the logic behind the fearmongering about small businesses taking a hit and frankly it does suck if a long established business can’t change with the times but it just isn’t feasible to maintain the status quo sometimes. Even with this whole Lowes/HD example; let’s say there is a local hardware store that has served a community for 40 years, they probably carry enough stuff to serve most needs but they don’t have a great selection and the items they do have are about 20% more expensive than you will find in Lowes. They probably also employ 10-15 people. So what really happens if Lowes comes in and the small guy goes under? Most of those people will probably get a job at Lowes, with about 80 other people who were not employed when the small yard was there along with some new truckers as well. Contractors in the area that were working odd jobs and had unsteady income are now working more regularly through Lowe’s contractor “install” programs and making a decent living and consumers have more choices and lower prices. Down side, you now have a giant retail establishment, traffic, noise, light and about 100 cord of wood from where there used to be trees.

Is a chain store right for every community in VT? Hell no. Vermont may be better off with a smart plan on controlled growth and expansion, not just lip service but serious plans that integrate small businesses and rural roots with providing retail establishments with scale to provide attractive prices.