[arel]

I didn't get that attitude at all. Very even, no huffiness. Just a detailed explanation of the situation.

BTW, I came home today and found a phone message from them.

I complained onto this forum too quickly. I sent the email and made the phone call yesterday, and then got pissed because they didn't return the call or the email until today.

My New York impatience, I guess.

About school: I always hated the authoritarian atmosphere in Brooklyn public schools, even in elementary school.

[GypsySoul22]

Originally Posted by LisaMc46

What's interesting to me is that we owe Vermont tax income tax every year even though we have modest salaries and it seems like a lot is deducted from our paychecks every week.

Not to step on Arel's thread, but yes, I agree, but it's not interesting but rather downright outrageous.

This is a place where jobs are scarce and when you do manage to get one they tax the heck out of you.

Even in the 'welfare state' (NY) we always got some sort of refund. I guess you have to either be VERY rich here or very poor and on every social program from food stamps, to medical help to hanging at the food bank.

Taxing people 'barely getting by' is yet another kick in the pants and invitation to leave the state.

[Sherylcatmom]

Originally Posted by GypsySoul22

I guess you have to either be VERY rich here or very poor and on every social program from food stamps, to medical help to hanging at the food bank.

We're in the middle of things, making enough to get by and not on social programs. We pay a hefty premium for Catamount health coverage. We've gotten money back from the state every year.

[RunawayJim]

With regard to income tax and paying or getting money back at the end of the year, there are some pretty good calculators floating around the internet to help you adjust your withholdings preventing you from paying a lot or getting back a lot. The idea is to balance it out and pay just a little bit or get back only a little bit allowing you to maximize the amount of money you get to make interest on while not having to pay a ton.

And regarding the original topic. I sympathize with you that you were slapped with a hefty fine for what was a mistake. But think of the term "accident". No one intends to cause them (if they do, you're usually in much bigger trouble). Accidents happen because someone makes a mistake, like not paying attention and running a stop sign. It could have cost you far more had you hit another car or, worse, a pedestrian or a bicyclist.

[Sherylcatmom]

Originally Posted by RunawayJim

With regard to income tax and paying or getting money back at the end of the year, there are some pretty good calculators floating around the internet to help you adjust your withholdings preventing you from paying a lot or getting back a lot. The idea is to balance it out and pay just a little bit or get back only a little bit allowing you to maximize the amount of money you get to make interest on while not having to pay a ton.

You are, of course, correct. We get some money back every year for exactly that reason: We've set up our withholdings (and estimated payments, since we're self-employed) to make sure we neither owe a huge chunk nor get a huge refund. It's always worked out.

Back to the OT, in 2001 I got an expensive ticket for (legally) turning right on red but then pulling right into the "suicide lane" to turn left. This was the first I'd heard of the grimly-named suicide lane. I was shocked because I had no idea what I did was a violation. The road was clear and I didn't think I'd done anything dangerous.

Apparently, there are laws about how soon you can pull into a turning lane after an intersection or something like that.

[arel]

I can see laws and law enforcement when it comes to safety, but sometimes there are abuses when fines are used for the explicit purpose of generating revenue.

Case in point: A while ago, in NYC, a pregnant woman became tired and/or woozy and had to sit down. She was on a subway platform and I believe she sat down on a stairway. She was given a hefty fine. The media publicized it and there was a public outcry. The ticket was eventually dismissed, probably because, to some extent, of the public outrage.

I have also heard of at least one trap where signals were manipulated so that a driver could not avoid being trapped and cited. And fined.

On the other hand, fines do two important things. They penalize drivers who disobey safetiy laws and they provide much needed revenue to the government.

I have become much more vigilant about stop signs since my ticket. And I even make a point of stopping cold and waiting a moment before I move on. I don't want to be accused of failing to make a complete stop. Others, including a friend of mine, have been ticketed for not making a complete stop at a stop sign.

I've largely gotten over my outrage at the ticket. I've reframed it as a $214 lesson that could potentially prevent an accident. An accident from running a stop sign could easily cost over a thousand times that amount of money in legal fees, insurance costs, and medical bills (even with insurance! But that's for another thread.) An it could injure or kill.

The problem is when there are abuses.

But I still think the fine was excessive, and I still resent it. But perhaps if it were less, and didn't hurt as much, it wouldn't have driven the point home to the extent that it did.

But I have to say that I can get anxious now whenever I see a police car.

[Sherylcatmom]

Originally Posted by arel

But I have to say that I can get anxious now whenever I see a police car.

I've always felt that way. It's a kneejerk reaction, as I was apparently born with authority issues. Interestingly, my encounters with law enforcement have been overwhelmingly positive -- after I get over my initial, "Oh, NO!" upon seeing a uniform.

[arel]

I paid my fine today.

I've had a few weeks to calm down, and I've been able to reframe the situation to something more positive, but I still think the fine was excessive.

[looking4home]

I'm surprised you ran a stop sign at all, arel. You don't seem the scofflaw, reckless type.

[arel]

I am neither reckless nor a scofflaw.

But I did go through a stop sign. It was because I didn't notice it. That particular stop sign comes after a sharp curve. Also, I may have gotten distracted for a moment.

So the state of Vermont was enriched by $214, at my expense.

Yes, I am more vigilant about stop signs now, but no matter how vigilant you are, you can still make a mistake.

Although either can cause the same damage in an accident, it's a shame that an honest mistake and a callous disregard of the law are fined at the same rate. But how do you explain the difference in court?

I guess I should count my blessings. People can go to prison and/or lose professional licenses for honest mistakes. A pharmacist has been in the news. He was swamped with work and did not adequately supervise a pharmacy tech. The tech made a mistake and gave something that actually killed the patient, who happened to be a cancer-stricken child. Now the pharmacist is doing 6 months in prison for involuntary manslaughter. He will never be allowed to practice his profession again. And he will also be stigmatized as a felon for the rest of his life.

A lot of people feel this was unfair. And it is also feared that this will lead to increased unwillingness to admit mistakes.

There was also a case, a few years ago, where a foster child was killed after being returned to the biological family. Four social workers had tried to keep the child from being sent home, and had been overruled. A psychologist had said it was safe to send the child home and a judge had made the final decision. But guess who got blamed for the child's death? The four social workers. And not just blamed, but criminally accused. And not for involuntary manslaughter, but, believe it or not, for murder! They were actually facing the prospect of life in prison! Thankfully, the jury acquitted them in half an hour. But think of the emotional trauma the social worker endured, and think of the financial cost. I hope they weren't financially ruined by legal bills.

There is no substitute for an independent judiciary. It is truly an outrage when politics enters a case. When that is allowed to happen, none of us are legally safe.

So I'm counting my blessings regarding the traffic ticket.