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[quote=flamingGalah!;48492793]The reason there are not older CIDP's other than in Torquay & Tresco is because up until recent years it was assumed they could only be grown in those areas & they have only become widely available to buy in recent years too. In old gardening books it says even Trachycarpus fortunei can only be grown in the SW & the very first CIDP I bought back in the early 90's had to be purchased from a specialist nursery in London. These days you can buy them everywhere & don't forget Southsea's record low is -8C, which is actually 1C higher than Torquay, so it isn't anything to do with "global warming". If someone had planted one in Southsea 100 years ago, it would more than likely still be there now...
Warmer summers will help them to recover quicker, but it doesn't need to be hot for them to grow faster. The Southsea CIDP's grew very quickly & this was thought to be because of the fairly warm summer minimum temperatures, rather than daytime highs...
Flaming - i have no idea why Southsea wouldn't have been considered earlier (lack of sheltered areas ? ) - you'd think over all those years if they were to flourish in Torquay they must at least have a chance elsewhere -- most UK areas certainly used to get colder winters . SW winters seem to have stood still on the temp front .
Put it like this , on the eastern side where i live you won't find ANY Cidp's palms - does that mean it's impossible ? maybe not nowadays -it would be worth a risk ,but it would have been impossible 30 years ago .
Location: João Pessoa,Brazil(The easternmost point of Americas)
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Originally Posted by deneb78
Just an educated guess, but I bet it is around Puerto Deseado at 47S. Any further south than that and you risk summer frosts.
Sure, Puerto Deseado is able to grow some frost hardy palm species, it is strange because the city has a Hardiness zone of 9A, while Trelew further north is 8B.
Looking at street view I don't see any Palm there, just broadleaved species and some pines.
Flaming - i have no idea why Southsea wouldn't have been considered earlier (lack of sheltered areas ? ) - you'd think over all those years if they were to flourish in Torquay they must at least have a chance elsewhere -- most UK areas certainly used to get colder winters . SW winters seem to have stood still on the temp front .
Put it like this , on the eastern side where i live you won't find ANY Cidp's palms - does that mean it's impossible ? maybe not nowadays -it would be worth a risk ,but it would have been impossible 30 years ago .
I'm sceptical about those Toulouse palms btw .
Torquay has always (amusingly) been marketed as the "English Riviera", even Cordylines (which have the common name 'Torbay Palm' because of their mass planting in that area), were not thought to be as hardy as they are. The people who wrote the gardening books obviously didn't bother to check weather records & stats & stated these & other plants could only be grown in the far SW. When I first bought Cordylines they were not commonly planted & again like CIDP's were not widely available...
I always knew CIDP's would thrive in Portsmouth & I was the one who suggested to the council that they should try some...
Like others have said the palms in Toulouse are obviously planted in a more sheltered spot than the official weather station, still they obviously took a fair amount of frost.
Looks like all those cidp's in Toulouse are up the walls of buildings getting a very good micro climate.
Let's put it this way. If Toulouse had cidp's all over the area, and they got hit with that weather, I would bet over 75% kill rate with those temps. Of course there will be some outliers up against a south facing wall getting heat from the wall, building, and probably the parking surface, etc. But most cidp out in the open in Toulouse would be killed in those temps day after day. They just aren't that hardy. If they were that hardy they would be all over the place in much colder climates like zone 8a. You can find cidp buried up against buildings like that in cold inland places in the South, but most of those places are just not hardy for cidp in the long term.
^^ this
11 ice days is too much.
About the 8b zones is true if they have warm summers.
I've seen P. Dactylferas, Canariensis and Washingtonias (not sure if Robustas or Filiferas) in 8b/9a Spanish climate zones at ~1000m of altitude being very big palms and getting 0 or unnoticeable winter damage.
Although is true that there even in winter they can have +15°C sunny highs in some/many days.
Torquay has always (amusingly) been marketed as the "English Riviera", even Cordylines (which have the common name 'Torbay Palm' because of their mass planting in that area), were not thought to be as hardy as they are. The people who wrote the gardening books obviously didn't bother to check weather records & stats & stated these & other plants could only be grown in the far SW. When I first bought Cordylines they were not commonly planted & again like CIDP's were not widely available...
I always knew CIDP's would thrive in Portsmouth & I was the one who suggested to the council that they should try some...
Like others have said the palms in Toulouse are obviously planted in a more sheltered spot than the official weather station, still they obviously took a fair amount of frost.
Not so much now ,but years ago i think Torquays advantage was generally milder temperatures with the same lowish rainfall totals as you get further east ,it was always around the 10c mark in Jan , while over in the East it was more like 6-7c (now it seems like 11 v 9 or even narrower) - more importantly it has a very sheltered position - a lot of plants at the outset died away but those in favoured spots did well .
I spent time down there years ago and it was the mildest place i have known for a winter location in the UK - Cornwall always seemed too exposed to me ,and any Sussex visits in winter always felt pretty chilly too .Swanage i felt was as good as it gets further east , So it's all about a sheltered spot for the palm in question .
Good idea of yours btw - next time i'm in Soutrhsea i will take a look - i was there in March, 2007 but didn't know the tree existed then ..... damn
Not so much now ,but years ago i think Torquays advantage was generally milder temperatures with the same lowish rainfall totals as you get further east ,it was always around the 10c mark in Jan , while over in the East it was more like 6-7c (now it seems like 11 v 9 or even narrower) - more importantly it has a very sheltered position - a lot of plants at the outset died away but those in favoured spots did well .
I spent time down there years ago and it was the mildest place i have known for a winter location in the UK - Cornwall always seemed too exposed to me ,and any Sussex visits in winter always felt pretty chilly too .Swanage i felt was as good as it gets further east , So it's all about a sheltered spot for the palm in question .
Good idea of yours btw - next time i'm in Soutrhsea i will take a look - i was there in March, 2007 but didn't know the tree existed then ..... damn
Yes Torquay has a good mild climate, but the summers are a little cooler & it is sunnier along the south coast from Hampshire/I.O.W eastwards. That's why I think Southsea is better as it is inbetween the SW (mild winters) & SE (warm summers) so gets the best of both worlds & is sunnier too
There are several CIDP's planted on the seafront, (well just back from the seafront), in Southsea, as well as several Butia odorata. There are a couple of Brahea armata too, but they much smaller...
Southsea shows up well on historical data - just been looking at comparisons going way back . Although go inland about 5 miles and things change rapidly .
The only outright advantage Torquay (and west of) has, is fewer ground frosts - but numbers were tiny so of no concern .
Yes , sun totals in Portsmouth ,Brighton etc 1900 odd ,Torquay approx 1800 going from memory . Still good totals for the UK /Northern Europe .
Lorient is the next marker down at 2000
then La Rochelle 2100 / 2200 ??? stands out all on its lonesome ,surrounded by a load of 1800s from memory
Then i think the Med to go higher than that - Genoa ? 44 N
A little footnote - looking at Eastbourne /Southsea - and for 3 months of the year Apr -May - June ,the sun hours of each month are higher than on the Medfiterranean coast at Genoa
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