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When I visited Zurich in mid January, there was one day when the noon temp was around 27F/-3C, I was sitting outside eating lunch for 45 min or so with minimal clothing and it was fairly comfortable because the air was dry and it was very sunny, with no wind at all. I wasn't alone: a lot of people were outside enjoying the fresh snowcover and sunshine that day.
On the other extreme, if any of you have been to Phoenix, they have the outdoor mist blasters at many public hangout areas like malls and cinemas; I could eat outside comfortably for 20-30min in the shade under that mist at 110F (43C) with super-low RH.
Of course, those are extreme examples with otherwise optimal conditions. An "ideal" temp range for sitting outside would be from 40-80F (5-27C), I'd say. Might need a sweater for the 40F. Depends largely on a lot of other factors: wind, sunhine, drizzly or not, etc...
What is your temperature range for outdoor seating in restaurants?
68-85F is perfect for outdoor seating and eating but will also go with up to mid 90s with low humidity if in the full shade and as low as low 60s if under the direct full sunshine and no wind.
70s, 80s. Anything warmer than that is too hot, but 90s is bearable under certain conditions. 60s too chilly.
But generally I don't like to eat outside. Napkins blow around, flies flying around.
It does? Why does SSI list a wet suit required at water temperatures of 85 F and lower (about 30C), what is your experience with this anyway?
You keep parroting the same stuff over and over again without READING what I'm saying. SOME people will require a wetsuit in 30 degree water. Because hypothermia is more insidious than heatstroke, the recommendation is obviously going to be skewed in the direction of caution. That doesn't mean everyone has to wear a wetsuit. Jesus Christ. Humans are highly variable - there is no one-size-fits-all maxim here.
Ever heard of Fran Crippen? He died swimming in 30+ degree water. Of heatstroke. I realize what you are going to say here: he would have survived or gotten hypothermia if had been scuba diving and not vigorously swimming. That effectively proves my point - human metabolism, activity and physique matter much more than water temperature, assuming that water temperatures are in the high 20s C or higher.
The only difference between air and water is how fast they draw heat from the human body. Someone who is cold at an air temperature of 25 degrees is far, far more likely to get hypothermia in 30-degree water than someone who is comfortable at an air temperature of 15 degrees. Water does not magically make the two people equal in their metabolism and rate of heat loss. Everything you're saying defies physics and biology.
Hypothermia results when Heat Lost (X) exceeds Heat Produced (Y).
You're focusing entirely on X and ignoring Y, which is equally important in this equation.
You keep parroting the same stuff over and over again without READING what I'm saying. SOME people will require a wetsuit in 30 degree water.
You will get hypothermia after about 4 hours, and die sometime after without a wetsuit. That is "everyone", since all human beings are subject to the law of physics.
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Ever heard of Fran Crippen? He died swimming in 30+ degree water. Of heatstroke.
This is the official report conclusion:
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The report concluded that Crippen may have died of a "cardiac abnormality" and "uncontrolled exercise-induced asthma in unfavorable race environmental conditions."
It was the first of it's kind, so it's exceedingly rare, and regulations are being put into place. To me this is more of pushing your body beyond its limits, then necessarily a heatstroke event but the jury is out and regulations are now in place to keep water no higher than 31 C for these kind of marathon swimming sessions (10 kilometers) .
You will get hypothermia after about 4 hours, and die sometime after without a wetsuit. That is "everyone", since all human beings are subject to the law of physics.
That's a blanket statement, the average time to hypothermia might be 4 hours but there's a pretty huge standard deviation.
In reality the time it takes to die at that temperature depends on a lot of factors such as age, weight, gender, and body mass.
For example, a small infant probably wouldn't even survive a couple hours lying idle in 30C water. On the other hand, if you take a large adult male with large enough muscle and fat mass, then the heat generated by burning food within his body would be enough to counteract the heat lost by contact with the water so that he could survive indefinitely while idle in 30C water (or more accurately, until the calories stored from wood within his body are expended).
Another important factor is acclimatization and training.
For instance, some US Navy SEALs have to undergo training where they need to dive into 5C water (with proper gear) and I'm sure they could survive a lot longer than their untrained counterparts living in tropical climates.
That's a blanket statement, the average time to hypothermia might be 4 hours but there's a pretty huge standard deviation.
If it's 4 hours, if someone fitter can do it in 6 hours (before the onsets of hypothermia) is completely missing the point. The point is you need a wetsuit in that temperature of water to avoid getting hypothermia.
It's like saying you need a jacket to be outside in 30 F weather, and someone going "na-nah, I spent 30 minutes outside and wasn't that cold", point being your body is slowly losing heat, it's doing its best to prevent it, but it's losing and eventually will lose.
30 C is not "warm" if it causes you to get hypothermia eventually. Now 40 C is warm, you will never get hypothermia then, even if you stay 20 hours, 100 hours. In fact, you will get heat stroke.
From your source:
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When I was attending SEAL Training, the water off San Diego was brutal to new recruits. Typically, water temperatures were (at best) 69 degrees during the warmest part of the summer and dropped to in the low 50's during the winter. Then in dive phase, at about 15 feet underwater, you would hit a thermo-cline and water temperature was in the low 40's. That was when BUD/S got cold, especially during a winter dive phase. Even if the water is 90 degrees your core temperature will very slowly start to drop from its normal level of 98.6 degrees. This would take hours at that temperature, but as the water temperature drops so does the amount of time you can safely train in that water.
Everything I said, you just proved. Btw, 90 degrees is quite a bit warmer than 85 degrees (30 C)
That is wrong about San Diego's SST only getting up to 69 in the warmest of summer days. Most summers get into the 70s and last summer was consistently in the mid to upper 70s with a few spots of 80. Plenty of people in the water at those temperatures for long bouts too! You don't stay in for hours but you can easily comfortably stay in for 30-45 minutes. 90F is more suitable for a bathtub where you just sit there. Swimming around and playing in the waves exerts energy so 77F is perfectly fine.
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