Is the climate of the southeast really an inferior/not a true subtropical climate? (dewpoint, United States)

[FirebirdCamaro1220]

Originally Posted by Ed's Mountain

San Juan averages 83 70°F lows during a typical meteorological winter (D-J-F), while Miami averages just 21. Are they definitely different climates?

No. But there's a bigger difference between 2 and 21 than there is between 21 and 83. 21 is 10.5 times 2, while 83 is 3.75 times 21

[Space_League]

Speaking of counting the number of times an arbitrary cutoff point is met in different places:

Raleigh really starts to look interesting once you throw Philly. The two look more similar than different:

Spoiler

This comparison isn't really fair either since the big thing between philly/baltimore type climates and Raleigh is the number of <25 and <20 degree days. You're going to see temps in the low 20s year in and year out in the midatlantic cities, whereas they are rare in a place like Raleigh.

[FirebirdCamaro1220]

Originally Posted by Space_League

Speaking of counting the number of times an arbitrary cutoff point is met in different places:

Raleigh really starts to look interesting once you throw Philly. The two look more similar than different:



This comparison isn't really fair either since the big thing between philly/baltimore type climates and Raleigh is the number of <25 and <20 degree days. You're going to see temps in the low 20s year in and year out in the midatlantic cities, whereas they are rare in a place like Raleigh.

What? Raleigh is Zone 8A, they drop below 20°F every year

[Space_League]

Originally Posted by FirebirdCamaro1220

What? Raleigh is Zone 8A, they drop below 20°F every year

Spoiler

fair point. As you get into the 20s the two seem to diverge more, but it's not really extreme until around <15f

[Space_League]

From this research it seems like Raleigh and Philly do have more in common than Raleigh and Savannah. It's hard to call someplace subtropical that hits <20 degree temps almost every year and <15 temps more often than not.

[Ed's Mountain]

Originally Posted by FirebirdCamaro1220

No. But there's a bigger difference between 2 and 21 than there is between 21 and 83. 21 is 10.5 times 2, while 83 is 3.75 times 21

First of all, I agree with Spacer that this game of arbitrary cutoffs is unlikely to lead anywhere useful.

However, if we're going to play it, I'm not sure the relative difference, i.e. A ÷ B, is more helpful than the absolute difference, i.e. A - B.

For example, consider the relative difference between Tampa and Orlando. It would appear that Tampa is infinitely more subtropical than Orlando.

[pdw]

Humid subtropical climate according to Koeppen (the experts)

Cold end (borderline continental):

Toledo, Ohio

Weifang, Shandong

Seoul


Middle of the road (should not be controversial)

Wilmington, NC

Fukuoka, Japan

Dallas


Warm end (borderline tropical):

Durban

Brisbane

Tampa

If the word subtropical is too controversial just say Cfa/Cwa but Koeppen grouped these climates together for a reason. Seasonal variations, hot summer, moderate to heavy rainfall in the hottest part of the year where it’s needed the most to keep things green. Call them humid shamalamadingdong if it helps you calm the nerves, that’s what I’ve been doing and it’s worked wonders

[Joe90]

Yep, Cfa isn't debatable, and subtropical best describes ecosystems.

[Ed's Mountain]

Originally Posted by Ed's Mountain

As I've said before, yes, Miami is tropical. However it has subtropical genetics. That's what makes it interesting.

For example, Miami recorded temperatures below freezing 36 times during the 20th century. For most people, this doesn't matter: they don't live long enough and they just go inside if it gets cold. However, it's reasonable to speculate that it may have an impact on the environment.



Source: https://www.taylorfrancis.com/chapte...ades-ecosystem

Ugh, not enough coffee. Miami reached freezing 19 times in the 20th century, not 36. May Asagi have mercy on my irredeemable soul.

[kemahkami]

Laurel species seem to be the best indicator of sufficiently humid subtropical areas. Going by that, both South America and (southern) Eastern Asia stand out as having the best developed zones.

It seems to be too dry in much of South Africa, Australia, and India. This creates either a sclerophyll/semi-sclerophyll or drought-deciduous phenotype, depending on the severity of dryness. The only exceptions are microclimates — windward facing areas of trade wind latitude islands (i.e. Madagascar, northerly areas of Zealandia, etc) or elevated slopes (i.e. Queensland, parts of Assam in India, etc).

North America has too much cold extremes, which produces massive cold winter-deciduousness. But the cold fronts also create aridity as a by-product, so even the milder coastal South still ends up with many sclerophyll (i.e. pines) and semi-sclerophyll (i.e. live oak, magnolia, etc) species. It seems that peninsular Florida and southern Mexico/Central America are the only exceptions in North America to find well developed laurel forests — Northern Mexico and far southern Texas are warm enough, but just too arid overall.