Most Northern Subtropical climate in the world? (Massachusetts, Midwest, comfortable)
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Only on this forum have I ever heard such claptrap that Philadelphia is subtropical. Every single piece of local literature, reports, analysis, whatever, never, ever describes this area as subtropical. I don't give a crap what Koppen wrote, we are not subtropical, and no one here thinks so either. And if we are not, neither is Boston.
I live 90 miles west of you and my area is definitely not subtropical. Sure, we don't have a snowpack in the winter and whatever snows tends to melt completely in a few weeks, but it gets cold here in winter. More days under 50°F than above. I'd say real subtropical starts somewhere around the VA/NC lowland border
Sure, they're different climates. Just like St. John's and Quebec City are different climates, and just like Miami and San Juan are different climates. No place has exactly the same averages as another. If the only argument you guys have left is "well, just because", then I can call it a victory and move on to other threads. *clicks "submit reply"* *closes window*
I see your argument as as the "well, just because " one. In this case it's - well just because they both exceed 22C in the hottest month, they are essentially the same climate.
Does that mean that understanding Boston's climate, would give a better understanding of Sydney's climate, than say.... the climate of Wollongong would? Wollongong - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Not to change the subject, but on this board I have seen posters state that parts of the UK are in a higher USDA zone than the Southeast/Gulf Coast of the US (zone 9a/9b). They are correct that zone 10a exists in the extreme corner of SW England, but that doesn't explain everything, like the lack of heat. Consider that in the US South in areas that are zone 9a, fruiting edible bananas are grown. Fruiting edible bananas are even growing wild along roadsides, something I thought would only happen in the tropics. This was a quote I saw from the Banana Forum:
"Due to my job, I have to travel to South La. and it's amazing to see the beautiful Bananas along the roads. They are so healthy and many have fruit. I don't know if it's the variety or growing conditions/zone, but some look as tall as 18 ft. .......It's just breath taking to see these growing wild along roads. I stopped along side the road this summer and picked one of the ripe bananas and it was a little smaller and sweeter than the store bought bananas."
In Charleston, SC seems fruiting bananas are growing all over the place.
The southeast US coastal subtropical areas can grow bananas and citrus, (though not commercially), but clearly the heat that is present for most of the year makes the climate of say Charleston far superior to the Scilly Isles in the UK in the growing of subtropical fruits. I've yet to find anything on the web showing anything other than Musa Basjoo (inedible) growing and fruiting in the UK. I haven't seen anything showing sweet oranges or grapefruits growing there. Warm winter weather matters, not just how cold it might occassionally get. Northern European maritime climates are just plain cold in winter. Not freezing cold like here, but too cold for warm loving subtropical fruits. The only subtropical climates in Europe are in the Med or the Azores, certainly not the UK or the maritime northern climates.
If my area is not subtropical then certainly the oceanic climates of N. Europe aren't either, regardless of Canary Island date palms growing there.
If the above comments were aimed at me I NEVER said anywhere in the UK was sub-tropical!
I said the climate was cool temperate maritime. Yes I live in a zone 9b climate & yes the Scilly Isles are zone 10a, but they are not sub-tropical & I don't think anyone has claimed that they are?
Indeed we do not get the summer heat that many places in the US do, but that is why the US has sunset zones, we do not have those in the UK, we only go by average minimums...
This just goes to prove how ridiculous the climate classifications systems are, as rarely are two places the same & many places have unique climates that simply cannot be put into one box or the other...
Oh & for the record there are oranges, lemons, avocado & grapefruit trees growing outside in the UK & fruiting ones too. I have seen photos of some growing happily in London & know of some growing in my area too...
But yeah it isn't sub-tropical in the UK & I don't think anyone was trying to claim it was...
Well, you kind of are by showing us pictures of palm trees and banana trees. I mean those things are synomous with the tropics.
While, those plants can grow in the UK we need very special conditions, they are not native and I certainly wouldn't rely on growing one in my backyard. You can say we have this and we have that. But the reality is, your not going to walk down the street and see an orange tree are you? Those trees that you mention are very rare.
No.
If the above comments were aimed at me I NEVER said anywhere in the UK was sub-tropical!
I said the climate was cool temperate maritime. Yes I live in a zone 9b climate & yes the Scilly Isles are zone 10a, but they are not sub-tropical & I don't think anyone has claimed that they are?
Indeed we do not get the summer heat that many places in the US do, but that is why the US has sunset zones, we do not have those in the UK, we only go by average minimums...
This just goes to prove how ridiculous the climate classifications systems are, as rarely are two places the same & many places have unique climates that simply cannot be put into one box or the other...
Oh & for the record there are oranges, lemons, avocado & grapefruit trees growing outside in the UK & fruiting ones too. I have seen photos of some growing happily in London & know of some growing in my area too...
But yeah it isn't sub-tropical in the UK & I don't think anyone was trying to claim it was...
It wasn't you. I don't remember, but someone claimed the Scilly Isles was the northernmost subtropical climate. I'd be very interested to see which sweet orange varieties are growing in the UK outside. Could you provide some links? This site states they are best grown in a conservatory in the UK. Citrus / RHS Gardening
From this source it appears that the UK is just not warm enough in winter, as well as all year long. As Joe90 states a while back, the winter in England doesn't seem to get warm enough during the day for citurs to bear edible fruit. There is no location in England that gets a high temp of 12C for an avg winter high temperature. And this article certainly makes it seems that fruiting is difficult in the UK, and that it is best grown indoors: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/gardening...trus-tree.html
Which citrus fruit trees are hardiest?
A general rule of thumb is the hardier the citrus the less desirable the fruit. The kumquats (Fortunella spp, survives down to -10C) are usually best used for marmalade here; the Japanese bitter orange (Poncirus trifoliata, survives to -20C) and Ichang lemon (Citrus ichangensis) are some of the hardier examples but none of their fruit is particularly good to eat. There is a fruiting grapefruit growing against a wall in the Chelsea Physic Garden and I have come across self-sown grapefruit that regularly survive temperatures of -8C. My lemon tree is outside all summer, then in a frost-free greenhouse in the winter. If you cannot provide a winter temperature of seven to 12C, the best productive plants to grow are probably grapefruit or lemons. Most lemons produce flowers (and fruit) throughout the year as opposed to just flowering in the winter and spring like many citrus trees.
Oranges need virtually 12 months of warmth in order to produce flowers and then ripen their fruit. In very mild gardens, lemons and grapefruit can be left outside with protection (thick fleece covers) but the plants tend to go into winter dormancy and often will not fruit. A better solution is to bring them into a covered porch.
Well, you kind of are by showing us pictures of palm trees and banana trees. I mean those things are synomous with the tropics.
While, those plants can grow in the UK we need very special conditions, they are not native and I certainly wouldn't rely on growing one in my backyard. You can say we have this and we have that. But the reality is, your not going to walk down the street and see an orange tree are you? Those trees that you mention are very rare.
No.
Erm no I'm not Many species of palm can be grown in temperate regions, just because these plants can grow in parts of the UK does not mean the climate is sub-tropical & I have never said it is or is in any way shape or form like a sub-tropical climate! It's a bit like saying someone is saying they live in a sub-arctic climate because they have heathers & pine trees in their garden!
Actually palms are fairly common in peoples gardens where I live, it is certainly not rare to see them, you may not see that where you live but your area is quite a bit colder...
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons
It wasn't you. I don't remember, but someone claimed the Scilly Isles was the northernmost subtropical climate. I'd be very interested to see which sweet orange varieties are growing in the UK outside. Could you provide some links? This site states they are best grown in a conservatory in the UK. Citrus / RHS Gardening
From this source it appears that the UK is just not warm enough in winter, as well as all year long. As Joe90 states a while back, the winter in England doesn't seem to get warm enough during the day for citurs to bear edible fruit. There is no location in England that gets a high temp of 12C for an avg winter high temperature. And this article certainly makes it seems that fruiting is difficult in the UK, and that it is best grown indoors: Squeezing the best from a citrus tree - Telegraph
Which citrus fruit trees are hardiest?
A general rule of thumb is the hardier the citrus the less desirable the fruit. The kumquats (Fortunella spp, survives down to -10C) are usually best used for marmalade here; the Japanese bitter orange (Poncirus trifoliata, survives to -20C) and Ichang lemon (Citrus ichangensis) are some of the hardier examples but none of their fruit is particularly good to eat. There is a fruiting grapefruit growing against a wall in the Chelsea Physic Garden and I have come across self-sown grapefruit that regularly survive temperatures of -8C. My lemon tree is outside all summer, then in a frost-free greenhouse in the winter. If you cannot provide a winter temperature of seven to 12C, the best productive plants to grow are probably grapefruit or lemons. Most lemons produce flowers (and fruit) throughout the year as opposed to just flowering in the winter and spring like many citrus trees.
Oranges need virtually 12 months of warmth in order to produce flowers and then ripen their fruit. In very mild gardens, lemons and grapefruit can be left outside with protection (thick fleece covers) but the plants tend to go into winter dormancy and often will not fruit. A better solution is to bring them into a covered porch.
I don't have direct links but I remember seeing a photo of a fruiting orange tree planted in the ground in central London. There are a few forums that I look in on, one called 'Growing On The Edge' I'm sure had the orange tree on, also pictures of avocado trees in London...
There is another forum called 'Hardy Tropicals UK' & also the forum of the 'European Palm Society'... I'm sure you will amazed at what stuff people are able to grow outdoors in the UK & even in 'freezing cold sub-arctic northern Ireland'
Erm no I'm not Many species of palm can be grown in temperate regions, just because these plants can grow in parts of the UK does not mean the climate is sub-tropical & I have never said it is or is in any way shape or form like a sub-tropical climate! It's a bit like saying someone is saying they live in a sub-arctic climate because they have heathers & pine trees in their garden!
Actually palms are fairly common in peoples gardens where I live, it is certainly not rare to see them, you may not see that where you live but your area is quite a bit colder...
I don't have direct links but I remember seeing a photo of a fruiting orange tree planted in the ground in central London. There are a few forums that I look in on, one called 'Growing On The Edge' I'm sure had the orange tree on, also pictures of avocado trees in London...
There is another forum called 'Hardy Tropicals UK' & also the forum of the 'European Palm Society'... I'm sure you will amazed at what stuff people are able to grow outdoors in the UK & even in 'freezing cold sub-arctic northern Ireland'
True, I'm amazed by what some people here are able to grow with freezing cold winters. Many people here grow fig trees. They are growing cotton in south central PA, saw it at a local farmers market. Some people are really into pushing the limits on growing plants out of their normal range. Have you ever come across this website: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=69
It's a website about growing all kinds of warm winter loving plants. Neat site. You have to go into the sub forum on plants.
True, I'm amazed by what some people here are able to grow with freezing cold winters. Many people here grow fig trees. They are growing cotton in south central PA, saw it at a local farmers market. Some people are really into pushing the limits on growing plants out of their normal range. Have you ever come across this website: Hearth & Home - The Apricity Forum: A European Cultural Community
It's a website about growing all kinds of warm winter loving plants. Neat site. You have to go into the sub forum on plants.
No not seen that forum, will have to check it out
Obviously we lack real summer heat in the UK to grow a lot of tender plants, but things that can grow in cooler summer temperatures, but need mild winters grow very well here, including many species of palm. I actually have about 16 different types of palm happily growing away in my back garden
It wasn't you. I don't remember, but someone claimed the Scilly Isles was the northernmost subtropical climate. I.
I fear you are referring to me. If you went by Trewartha's climatic classifications, then the Scilly Isles would be 'subtropical', since there is no summer heat criteria.
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